ToB:Bo9S Tank / City Watch Character Build

[Arkhandus]

Note that maneuvers are listed with a range or effect of melee attack. But their Initiation Action is typically listed as a standard action.

Chapter 3: Blade Magic. Page 42, (Type) Strike. "Strikes almost always require a standard or full-round action to complete. Most of them involve a melee attack as part of completing the maneuver."

In the next paragraph..."You are not taking a full attack action when you initiate a strike, even if its initiation action is 1 full round action."

On page 38 the Initiating Maneuvers And Stances section similarly describes how they function.

Other places refer to maneuvers using either a full-round action, standard action, move action, swift action, or immediate action. Maneuvers are not initiated with attack or full-attack actions.


"STONE POWER"
"When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat, you can....."

Stone Power does not work with other kinds of Strike.

 

[Mistwell]

Note that maneuvers are listed with a range or effect of melee attack. But their Initiation Action is typically listed as a standard action.

And one of the subsets of a standard action is an an attack action, and one of the subsets of the attack action is the melee attack. That is the only place I can even find that refers to the "attack action".

Chapter 3: Blade Magic. Page 42, (Type) Strike. "Strikes almost always require a standard or full-round action to complete. Most of them involve a melee attack as part of completing the maneuver."

Indeed. I was not arguing full attack, just melee attack, which is an attack action (one of only about four even listed in the PHB as being an attack action).

In the next paragraph..."You are not taking a full attack action when you initiate a strike, even if its initiation action is 1 full round action."

Never argued full attack. Just a melee attack, which is an attack action.

On page 38 the Initiating Maneuvers And Stances section similarly describes how they function.

Other places refer to maneuvers using either a full-round action, standard action, move action, swift action, or immediate action. Maneuvers are not initiated with attack or full-attack actions.

I disagree, but I am not sure it's relevant what initiates it - it's only relevant whether or not you have made an attack action. In fact, most strikes REQUIRE that you use a melee attack action to use the strike. And there is no question so far in my mind in the PHB a melee attack is an attack action.

"STONE POWER"
"When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat, you can....."

Stone Power does not work with other kinds of Strike.

Why doesn't it work with other kinds of strikes if those strikes involve a melee attack, which is an attack action?

Guys, show me where something requiring a melee attack isn't an attack action. Where in the PHB does it ever leave any doubt that anything involving a melee attack is an attack action?

 

[Mistwell]

@ Mistwell: The book could be clearer. You should see "Melee attack" listed as the Range, not the action type. Look at Initiation Action to see the action type required. Full attacks are generally NOT compatible with most Strikes (there are a few Strikes which give you full attacks, though).

- - -

Stone Dragon school Strikes are useful for Crusaders, because Stone Power is useful thanks to your Delayed Damage Pool, and the only actions compatible with Stone Power are regular attacks and Stone Dragon strikes.

Cheers, -- N

I will give you an example. Douse the Flames, a white raven maneuver, says "As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack...".

PHB in the index lists "Attack (action)" as page 139. Page 139 says "Standard Actions", and lists as a subset the "Attack" action, and lists as a subset of that "Melee Attacks". If a melee attack isn't an attack action, then what IS an attack action?

 

[Zurai]

Conversely, why would it specifically allow Stone Dragon strikes when ALL strikes, by definition, involve an attack?

 

[Anthelios]

Sorry for the threadjack, but I'm about to play my own Crusader here in a little while. Going with sword and board.

My question is, how do you deal with the styles requiring different weapons? I chose a longsword and a heavy mace (longsword is shared by white raven and devoted spirit) but without improved unarmed strike it looks like I'll have to switch to my mace to be able to use my Stone Dragon strikes. There are other weapons that are shared, but no one weapon is usable by all three.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Zurai]

Favored weapons are fluff. With the exception of a couple feats which require discipline favored weapons to activate (Shadow Blade, White Raven Defense), they are not required for anything at all. You can initiate any maneuver with any weapon.

 

[blargney the second]

Mistwell, I also interpret that that Stone Power can't be used when initiating a maneuver from another school - the limitations seem like they're there for a reason. That being said, I doubt it'd be game-breaking to let it fly. A strong option, but not horribly broken. *shrug*

Anthelios, like Zurai said, favoured weapons are not necessary to initiate maneuvers. You can even do them with a regular non-improved unarmed strike (and provoke and AoO in so doing).
-blarg

 

[Nifft]

My question is, how do you deal with the styles requiring different weapons? I chose a longsword and a heavy mace (longsword is shared by white raven and devoted spirit) but without improved unarmed strike it looks like I'll have to switch to my mace to be able to use my Stone Dragon strikes. There are other weapons that are shared, but no one weapon is usable by all three.

Maneuvers do not require specific weapons.

There are benefits to using weapons favored by the schools, but they're handled via Feats.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

PHB in the index lists "Attack (action)" as page 139. Page 139 says "Standard Actions", and lists as a subset the "Attack" action, and lists as a subset of that "Melee Attacks". If a melee attack isn't an attack action, then what IS an attack action?

"Attack action" can be different from "an attack".

For example, from a popular 2nd level spell:

You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.

Does this spell require a full attack action? No.

Does this spell require BAB 11+? No.

Does this spell grant you three Standard Actions? No.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Basically, keep in mind that specific rules trump general rules. It's true that you can make an attack as a Standard action. But when the rules say that an attack is not a Standard action, you should trust them.

 

[Anthelios]

Is it possible to ready a maneuver more than once? Say, to get a better chance at getting it randomly as a crusader?