ToB:Bo9S Tank / City Watch Character Build

[Mistwell]

Mistwell, I think I found the bits that clarify the whole Stone Power thing. Here goes:

1) Stone Power feat: "When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat [...]" (ToB p.32)
2) Resolving a Maneuver - Attack Rolls: "Many maneuvers include an attack of some kind." (ToB p.39)
3) Resolving a Maneuver - Actions During a Maneuver: "The Initiation Action line of a maneuver description provides the action required to use that maneuver." (ToB p.39)

So the reason you can't use Stone Power while initiating a non-Stone Dragon strike is that it takes a standard action to initiate and allows you to make an attack roll. Neither the initiation action nor the attack roll are an attack action, full attack action, or a Stone Dragon strike. No dice on the Stone Power.
-blarg

ps - Attack actions and full attack actions are described as standard actions and full-round actions in the PHB. (p.139 and p.143, respectively)

My view is that some things grant you a bonus attack action, and that many strikes grant such a bonus action, as well as some spells and feats. For example, when I cast shocking grasp, which allows me to make a touch attack along with the casting, in my view the touch attack is an attack action (a bonus one granted by the type of spell, which can only be used against an appropriate target in melee range). Similarly, when I make a trip attempt with the improved trip feat, the feat grants me a bonus melee attack action against just that tripped target.

It's possible these are not bonus attack actions, but actions which are something other than an attack action. But I think it's unclear, and not unreasonable to view the "make a melee attack" portion of these three types of events as bonus attack actions that can only be used for a stated specific purpose. Melee attacks in the PHB seem to be defined as attack actions, and I cannot find anywhere so far any description of a melee attack which is defined as something other than an attack action (or full attack action).

 

[blargney the second]

My view is that some things grant you a bonus attack action

Nah, it's simpler than that. It doesn't say anywhere that you get a bonus attack action - you just get a bonus attack roll that doesn't require an action. They're divorced.
-blarg

 

[Nifft]

I'm on the side of no secret bonus actions.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zurai]

Uh, yeah, sorry. There are very, very few things in the game that grant bonus actions, and "Anything that involves making an attack roll except for a normal attack" isn't on the list.

A more specific counter:

The PHB specifically says you can substitute a special attack (trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, etc) for an attack action. You CANNOT substitute such an attack for one of these "bonus attack actions" you claim exist; you cannot trip with a Shocking Grasp or Sunder with a Maneuver, unless such a possibility is specifically outlined in the ability.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Remove Sunder from your list, and you've got it, Zurai.

 

[Mistwell]

OK, Hypersmurf convinced me that not all melee attacks are attack actions.

Given that, the Stone Power feat seems to go down in power a lot in my estimation. The Stone Dragon group of maneuvers seems to be the weakest of the bunch (and hence everyone has access to it). While there are certainly some maneuvers in that group worth selecting, any character that has a lot of readied maneuvers will likely not come across a stone dragon maneuver all that often (less than 50% of the time most likely).

So unlike Power Attack, which is often used for every attack you make if the opponent has a low AC, Stone Power won't be getting used nearly as often for characters with a lot of readied maneuvers (like Crusaders and Shadwblades), unless they want to not use maneuvers (which seems to defeat the purpose of choosing that class).

Warblades will use it more often, since they have fewer readied maneuvers, and their renewal method is a normal attack action which can utilize the feat. For example, a warblade starts with only three maneuvers until higher levels, and I can see that they would use a non-Stone maneuver in round one, a Stone Dragon maneuver like Stone Bones in round two, a non-Stone maneuver in round three, and then a normal attack action with Stone Power in round four to renew their maneuvers. 50% of the time they can use the feat (though it's a bit sub-optimal with that combination, since stone bones will already reduce the damage you take, but still there will be plenty of times it will be useful even with that combination). 50% utility is not that bad.

But for a Crusader like this City Watchman example? I am not so sure. At first level I can see having two-fifths of your maneuvers as Stone Dragon, but as you get higher in level I think it will likely move away from Stone Dragon selections as all those juicy Devoted and White Raven options become available.

So what do you guys think? Is Stone Power really worth it, long term, for this kind of Crusader character?

 

[blargney the second]

Yeah, crusaders get access to kick-ass maneuvers in Devoted Spirit and White Raven, which is why Stone Power is not an automatic no-brainer for them. (Which means the designers did something very right...)

So back on your first post, I've got to tell you that my warforged warblade/divine mind is a seriously fun tank. They make extra good city watchmen because they don't sleep.
-blarg

 

[Nifft]

Is Stone Power really worth it, long term, for this kind of Crusader character?

Stone Power is far better for a Crusader than it is for a Warblade.

Why? Because a Crusader knows how much damage (minimum) he'll take next round, thanks to his Delayed Damage Pool. At 5th level, you can suck up up to 10 points of damage, use them to power your Furious Counterstrike, and get all of them back next round.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

Stone Power is far better for a Crusader than it is for a Warblade.

Why? Because a Crusader knows how much damage (minimum) he'll take next round, thanks to his Delayed Damage Pool. At 5th level, you can suck up up to 10 points of damage, use them to power your Furious Counterstrike, and get all of them back next round.

Cheers, -- N

So what is the order on that, does it go like this?

I am initiative count 10, monster is 9. Monster hits me on init count 9 for 10 points damage and it goes into my delayed pool. On init count 10 I do a stone power maneuver for 10 temp hit points, and use the delayed damage to power a furious counterstrike. Init count 9 rolls around again after that, and the delayed damage becomes real damage, coming off my temp hit points (which were about to go away anyway). Is that correct?

 

[blargney the second]

Yep, that's right.