ToB:Bo9S Tank / City Watch Character Build

[Nifft]

Is it possible to ready a maneuver more than once? Say, to get a better chance at getting it randomly as a crusader?

No, nor can you leave a slot empty.

There's a feat you can take, though.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Arkhandus]

And one of the subsets of a standard action is an an attack action, and one of the subsets of the attack action is the melee attack. That is the only place I can even find that refers to the "attack action".

So is 'casting a spell', but you don't see people trying to claim that you can use a standard action attack to cast a spell at the same time. Just because the spell is listed as taking a 'standard action' to cast does not mean you can just use any kind of standard action to cast a spell. Just as you can't cast a spell and manifest a psionic power and make a melee attack all with a single standard action; each one is a specific type of standard action of its own. Also, maneuvers are described as being similar to spells in their activation, with only a few key differences.

I disagree, but I am not sure it's relevant what initiates it - it's only relevant whether or not you have made an attack action. In fact, most strikes REQUIRE that you use a melee attack action to use the strike. And there is no question so far in my mind in the PHB a melee attack is an attack action.

NO, they require that you make a melee attack as part of the strike; not a melee attack action. The section of the book that describes initiating maneuvers already says that they may involve making an attack as part of the action, but it does not say that the attack itself triggers the maneuver.

Why doesn't it work with other kinds of strikes if those strikes involve a melee attack, which is an attack action?

Because it specifically mentions only working with Stone Dragon strikes and normal attack/full-attack actions. Why would it even specify that AT ALL, if any kind of melee attack triggered maneuvers? That would be just monumentally, stupidly redundant wording, and not something the designers would do by mistake.


As for your last point - Attacks of Opportunity. You don't use an 'attack action' to make an attack of opportunity.

You don't use an 'attack action' to deliver a Shocking Grasp spell when you cast it in the same round; the spell itself just lets you make a melee touch attack as part of casting the spell, but the actual action used is just the 'casting a spell' standard action.

You seem to be confusing 'attacks' in general with 'attack actions', as though any kind of attack uses up a standard action.

 

[Arkhandus]

Is it possible to ready a maneuver more than once? Say, to get a better chance at getting it randomly as a crusader?

Nope. Maneuvers are not spells; they do not use the spell preparation mechanics. You don't have maneuver slots; you just have a certain number of maneuvers you ready at any given time. Different maneuvers.

Extra Granted Maneuver helps, though.

The Sage confirms some of this stuff in Dragon Magazine, but given the occasional mistakes he makes, I'm half-sure you'll just brush that off as irrelevant. Just as I brush off anything in the FAQ as being irrelevant!

 

[Mistwell]

So is 'casting a spell', but you don't see people trying to claim that you can use a standard action attack to cast a spell at the same time.

Nobody is trying to take two actions with one standard action. Seems like a strawman to me.

NO, they require that you make a melee attack as part of the strike; not a melee attack action.

I don't see a difference. A melee attack is an attack action.

The section of the book that describes initiating maneuvers already says that they may involve making an attack as part of the action, but it does not say that the attack itself triggers the maneuver.

What triggers a maneuver is not relevant to what can be used with Stone Power.

Because it specifically mentions only working with Stone Dragon strikes and normal attack/full-attack actions.

If it said "normal attack action" you would be right. It does not. Indeed, that is the crux of this discussion. It says attack action, regardless of whether it is normal or abnormal.

Why would it even specify that AT ALL, if any kind of melee attack triggered maneuvers? That would be just monumentally, stupidly redundant wording, and not something the designers would do by mistake.

Because there could be a Stone Dragon strike that does not involve an attack action or a full round attack, and they wanted to make it clear that ANY stone power strike, regardless of the type of action involved, can be used with the Stone Power feat.

As for your last point - Attacks of Opportunity. You don't use an 'attack action' to make an attack of opportunity.

You don't use an 'attack action' to deliver a Shocking Grasp spell when you cast it in the same round; the spell itself just lets you make a melee touch attack as part of casting the spell, but the actual action used is just the 'casting a spell' standard action.

You seem to be confusing 'attacks' in general with 'attack actions', as though any kind of attack uses up a standard action.

Actually you seem to be confusing standard actions with attack actions.

I am saying that when something requires that you make a melee attack, it is an attack action. Because the PHB defines it as such. And yes, while casting a spell might not be an attack action, delivering a shocking grasp is an attack action.

 

[Arkhandus]

It's obviously pointless trying to make you understand that there's a difference. You're not going to accept anything rational as an explanation.

 

[Zurai]

Because there could be a Stone Dragon strike that does not involve an attack action or a full round attack, and they wanted to make it clear that ANY stone power strike, regardless of the type of action involved, can be used with the Stone Power feat.

Except that there can't. Strikes are defined as a maneuver that involves an attack.

 

[Mistwell]

It's obviously pointless trying to make you understand that there's a difference. You're not going to accept anything rational as an explanation.

I assure you, I am keeping an open mind. I don't view my position as any different than any other rules forum debate over the wording of a feat, and I think others have already granted the wording on this feat could (and should) have been better. From my position, I am arguing for not only a rationale, but a reasonable, interpretation of this rule.

I am sorry you feel frustrated. That was not my intent.

 

[Mistwell]

Except that there can't. Strikes are defined as a maneuver that involves an attack.

Are they? Could you cite the language of that rule (I am not doubting you I just don't have the book available at the moment).

And are there forms of attacks in this game that do not involve the attack action? I think there probably are. For example, concentrating on a spell that is causing damage does not involve an attack action I believe, but it is an attack.

 

[Mistwell]

I have spun off the "what is an attack action" question to it's own thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3781391#post3781391

Please leave the specific Stone Power and Book of 9 Swords discussion in this thread. I am trying to keep that thread clear of context intentionally, because it clouds the issue. If Stone Power needs to be house ruled as a result, I think that is fine. I'd like to first get to the issue of what an attack action and full round attack action really is, and then decide what to do about any ramifications for the stone power feat.

 

[blargney the second]

Mistwell, I think I found the bits that clarify the whole Stone Power thing. Here goes:

1) Stone Power feat: "When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat [...]" (ToB p.32)
2) Resolving a Maneuver - Attack Rolls: "Many maneuvers include an attack of some kind." (ToB p.39)
3) Resolving a Maneuver - Actions During a Maneuver: "The Initiation Action line of a maneuver description provides the action required to use that maneuver." (ToB p.39)

So the reason you can't use Stone Power while initiating a non-Stone Dragon strike is that it takes a standard action to initiate and allows you to make an attack roll. Neither the initiation action nor the attack roll are an attack action, full attack action, or a Stone Dragon strike. No dice on the Stone Power.
-blarg

ps - Attack actions and full attack actions are described as standard actions and full-round actions in the PHB. (p.139 and p.143, respectively)