Undine the Sea

Rystil Arden · Mar 20, 2008

(OOC: Greater Command functions as per the Command spell with a different target and duration, no?)

covaithe · Mar 20, 2008

ooc: Yes, I believe that's what I said. But I'm still unclear on what happened. I don't understand how a greater command could have produced the effects you described, either, without a lot of handwaving. Please understand I'm not trying to be a rules lawyer here; quite the opposite: I'm still a bit of a D&D newbie, and when something happens and I don't understand how, in the context of the rules, I feel compelled to ask how the rules were applied to create that situation. So, in the case of Greater Command Halt, we're not helpless, so we don't take any penalty to AC, don't lose our dex mod, can't be CdG'd... how were the priests able to tie us all up in one round?

Rystil Arden · Mar 20, 2008

(OOC: You weren't helpless. However, you aren't allowed to take any action at all, including attacks of opportunity or attempting to struggle. Thus, the priests can just take the 'Bind A Character' Use Rope option. Of course, once the Command ends, you can just take a standard action to Escape Artist if you want (Nura has that option now). It's just as if if the priests just grappled everyone, except they grappled you with rope

)

covaithe · Mar 20, 2008

ooc: If we were unable to attempt to struggle, surely we would also be unable to attempt to dodge a melee attack. In other words, we would be helpless. Which we are not.

Rystil Arden · Mar 20, 2008

[SBLOCK=Lots of Random OOC] There's a difference between being helpless and being actionless. Basically, not being helpless mainly means that the enemy can't CdG you or use attacks that say they only work against a helpless opponent. They could have also put everyone in a bodily grapple and then pinned them (and probably could have beat everyone up with attacks if that was their style) thanks to the terrible saves rolled.

It's mostly an issue with the wording of the entry on Use Rope--it doesn't exactly explain when you can use it very clearly. I take it to mean that it is essentially like grappling with rope. So the group is minus AoOs due to Command, so they miss out on those. Then the priests make a touch attack, which might fail because the group can still dodge. Then they roll Use Rope checks. The good news for the priests is that they know who avoided being tied up and they outnumber the group, so they just tried again on the people who avoided it the first time. The gloss in game flavour text is what you see above[/SBLOCK]

Ximix · Mar 20, 2008

[sblock=some more OOC: ] Without a map I cannot press my argument, yet I am quite uncomfortable with the deus-ex-machina quality of this development.
I will simply state this:
I cannot understand how a group of clerics, which as I read it are spread out in a large room, which our group just entered can in one round:
Move with a concerted effort to close with the group, produce rope that none of us could see, tie each and every one of us to a level of binding that even strong fighters are helpless, and though the only command was given to "HALT", we are somehow unable to flee, resist, fall down, even speak?

In the end I will hope this is like the unavoidable plot-hook of A1 - Slave Pits of the Undercity, without the stripping of all gear. Ximix will, for his "action" be helplessly tied up.
[/sblock]

covaithe · Mar 20, 2008

[sblock=ooc]As Ximix points out, this is pretty clearly a plot point. I'll confess to being a little disgruntled that we spent a month roleplaying which boat to take, but when the first combat happens, out comes the handwaving and fast-forwarding. But, I'm more interested in moving on than in arguing, so I'm happy to drop the point.[/sblock]

Rystil Arden · Mar 20, 2008

[SBLOCK=OOC]It's not deus ex machina--though it was quite possible the party would be in trouble against the High Priestess because she is high level. The fact that every single person failed their save is coincidental--I was expecting some of the group to make it and some to fail. But it's the RAW effect of the spell she cast--you cannot flee, resist, fall down, etc or take any action at all (read the Command spell if you don't believe me). Actually, these priests are pretty crummy at fighting for their level because they are usually pacifistic--though in playtest the group almost always eventually succumbed, in one instance where they attacked immediately, you guys manage to subdue or kill all of them. I was open to any possibility and prepared to deal with each in turn, and it happened this way because of how the dice fell--I imagine that if we were at a gaming table, we would have all laughed and slapped our foreheads when the saves wound up as terrible as they were for everyone.

As to your later concerns, it's not a particularly good level of binding. However, no one except Ximix and Nura have made their saves yet, so they don't have a chance to act.[/SBLOCK]

Amaury · Mar 20, 2008

OOC: let's move on!

Rystil Arden · Mar 20, 2008

(OOC: Agreed--waiting for Dargon to post something for Nura. I remember he said he was busy though. If it takes too long, one of you want to decide for her?)