Wall of Force question

dingle said:

You are right that a blind person can detect odjects by sound (a clicking sound, a bit like a dolphin I suppose) and detecting the echo. If a dragon would know about this and be making any sound at the time, I don't know. So I suppose a high listen check would be OK. He could have spent 100 years in his cave perfecting it they live long enough after all.
I still would have would have had him fly into the wall though, much more fun.

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As far as the statement below goes blindsight lets you know exactly where someone or something is in a within a 5 foot-square as if you could see it. Blindsense lets you know what square(s) it is in, but not where the object/creature is within the square which is why if a creature with blindsense attacks an invisible creature it still has a miss chance. All the dragon has to know is which squares to avoid so it can turn around, assuming it has the ability to do so.

The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.

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Thatwackyned said:

Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall.

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Actually, (the_orc_within touched on this earlier) regular vision can detect an invisible object. It's in the SRD in the epic section: Spot So even if you're going to say that Blindsense can only act as a magnification of other senses, spotting something invisible is still possible using only vision. Another fun tidbit of WoF fun is that you can actually pass through one with an Escape Artist DC of 120.

Now, I imagine the next thing you're going to point out is that WoF isn't an object. It's an effect. However, the spell descrition specifically states that it is an invisible wall, so I would treat it the same way that I would a regular, invisible wall. YMMV.

I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players. Why? Why so driven to have the dragon on rails? Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?

A very good moment in a game I participated in came when we had been dungeon-crawling for too long, and we were out of spells. Well, except one. I had a Stone Shape spell. But I couldn't think of any combat use for it, so I was just using a crossbow to plink at a flying enemy. None of us could fly, so the bad guy just hovered out of melee range and walloped us with spells.

Then I thought, maybe I can make a shape like a bent stop sign. You know? So I touched the wall, and shaped a line up toward the ceiling, then across the ceiling, ending in a big block about 5' square and 1' thick. It immediately fell. My DM ruled that the enemy got a Reflex save, which he made, but still took half damage. Bad guy lived, but was grounded and with a lot fewer hit points.

Every player was elated. We had gone something like 10 rounds in near-futility. We had no spells, and our tanks were ineffectual. Seeing that slab of stone hit the guy, there was actual cheering at the table. It was a great moment.

Why not let these players have a great moment?

aboyd said:

I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players. Why? Why so driven to have the dragon on rails? Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?

A very good moment in a game I participated in came when we had been dungeon-crawling for too long, and we were out of spells. Well, except one. I had a Stone Shape spell. But I couldn't think of any combat use for it, so I was just using a crossbow to plink at a flying enemy. None of us could fly, so the bad guy just hovered out of melee range and walloped us with spells.

Then I thought, maybe I can make a shape like a bent stop sign. You know? So I touched the wall, and shaped a line up toward the ceiling, then across the ceiling, ending in a big block about 5' square and 1' thick. It immediately fell. My DM ruled that the enemy got a Reflex save, which he made, but still took half damage. Bad guy lived, but was grounded and with a lot fewer hit points.

Every player was elated. We had gone something like 10 rounds in near-futility. We had no spells, and our tanks were ineffectual. Seeing that slab of stone hit the guy, there was actual cheering at the table. It was a great moment.

Why not let these players have a great moment?

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If the OP said should he let his players do it. I might have given a different answer, but he wanted a rules-answer, and by the rules the dragon might, depending on feats, be able to avoid the wall of force, and it definitly isn't shapeable.

If you ask me a rules question I give you a rules answer because I would expect the same in return. If I say "should I allow _____" then I may not be so interested in the rules, and I may be more willing to accept the fun answer.

aboyd said:

I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players. Why? Why so driven to have the dragon on rails? Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?

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Well, I wasn't disagreeing about the DM's decision, I was disagreeing about the interpretation what Blindsense allows a creature to detect and what not.

I'm fine with ignoring the rules in the interest of fun (from time to time).

concerro said:

If you ask me a rules question I give you a rules answer because I would expect the same in return.

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That's fine. No need to defend your answer -- I wasn't attacking you, nor did I even have you specifically in mind. I was just making a general comment "to the room" so to speak.

Jhaelen said:

I'm fine with ignoring the rules in the interest of fun (from time to time).

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Ah. I'm kinda not OK with ignoring the rules, even though I'm the one that you're replying to. I guess my post was worded poorly.

I think if there is a clear & obvious rule that prohibits what the player wanted to do, then to me, there's a rule. Sorry, player. So I wasn't quite advocating ignoring rules in the name of fun. I'm just not that free-spirited, even though it's probably a good idea.

Instead, I intended to imply that the level of work being put into finding a way to foil the player's intentions is too much for a lame payoff (that is, the player sits down, disappointed). If the rule exists but is so obscure that we have to get into a 3-page thread to find it and hash it out, maybe that rule ain't good enough and an on-the-fly ruling in the favor of the player would make sense.

On top of that, even in all the effort in this thread, I'm still not convinced. There are too many people making good counterpoints. So even if we do have a rule, it's too much in dispute or it's too murky. So I might rule in the player's favor again.

So... have a clear rule that stops the player? Player is stopped. But have a rule somewhere in one of many books and maybe if you look really hard for a while you might have something to stop the player? Too much effort, player wins. Have a rule at your fingertips, but it's ambiguous? Nah, side with the player.

I hope that makes sense. And also, that's just me putting my thoughts out there. I'm not intending to tell anyone that they are "having fun wrong." If some DM loves rule-hunting and rule-debating, and all the players are gung-ho to do that too, then by all means, have fun!

I did not feel attacked. I was just making a point for the others even though I used the word "I".

Great! Thanks.

moving flying creature vs wall of force

I had this come up as well in one of my games.
- Wall needs to be flat ie no turns
- DC 40 spot check to notice it
- doesn't need to be anchored
Where it got tricky was the damage.
The speed of the dragon was 240 ft per round. doing some math that came out to ~30 mph
I rulled that this was fall damage.

"Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position."

So that is max fall damage from the initial crash then ADDITIONAL fall damage from hitting the ground. It was 60 feet up at the time (ie max range for its breath weapon to effect the PCs) so it took an additional 6d6 pts.

Additionally for those of you who say the dragon would get a perception check I say nay.

"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."

So first the wall is Invisible (not generally "observable")
Second the dragon in question is flying = move action in preparation for a strafing breath weapon attack
so unless you have true seeing or see invisibility up no way the dragon just notices it in time.

In summation:
A spot check is not a reflex save.
and 26d6 from a 6th level spell is incredible
Players also wanted the Dragon to have (at least) the dazed condition and having been in a 30mph crash myself I logically agreed.

Also because it was brought up in earlier posts the question of Blind Sense needs to be addressed.

"Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see."

Blindsense is not blindsight and as such does not allow seeing of invisible inanimate non-moving objects like a rock, piece of equipment. The key here is the part "Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense" why is this the case? Because it can not "see" where its going.

Could the dragon notice a wall of force if it was looking for one? Yes absolutly as DM I would even give it a bonus to do so.
Looking at it from a RAW perspective I can't see giving it a free perception check for invisible non creature objects in its flight path in the middle of combat unless it could be reasonably assumed it was looking for said objects.

First, I applaud your Thread-Necromancy skills. Halloween would have been a more fitting occasion than Thanksgiving, and it isn't yet the Full Moon, so...

But I digress.

First, by RAW there's no way to shape the Wall of Force into a Cube. 1st Edition allowed a caster to encircle a point, and said that it would then include a dome-like cover, but that's a long time ago. So the DM was correct on that.

Second, unlike Iron, Stone or Ice, this Wall is immovable. There's no chance of it falling, and nothing in the rules that says it has to be anchored to the ground. (or anything else).

Third, the only collision rules there are in D&D are from falling. Since the question specified R.A.W., the Dragon takes no damage from flying into it. Falling to the ground once it loses flight speed? Sure, that will happen.

Fourth, does it get a Save? The spell doesn't call for one, but some kind of check is appropriate to avoid the collision, if the Dragon can Spot it. Blind Sense specifies "creatures", so by R.A.W. it won't get it automatically. Still, they have one hell of a Spot check, and even at the -5 for "distracted" Spot, he might make it. Applying some common sense, most flying creatures are sensitive to changes in wind and air movement. Your Wall will definitely affect those, and that sort of subtle awareness of surroundings is exactly what Blind Sense is talking about, so I'd be temped to give him that one. Considering his Poor maneuverability it probably won't make any difference.

Depending on the Dragon's skills at Spell Craft, even if it's ruled that he can't automatically know that the Wall is there, he can definitely Spot the caster, and with the right Spell Craft check he can know what spell was cast. (One of the reasons I'd give it to him.)

Depending on how far the drop is from the Wall, the Dragon might well have time to recover.

I hate applying Physics to D&D, but...

1st second of falling, 32 feet per second, 32 feet fallen.
2nd second of falling, 64 feet per second, 96 feet fallen.
3rd second of falling, 96 feet per second, 192 feet fallen.
4th second of falling, 128 feet per second. 310 feet fallen.
5th second of falling, 160 feet per second, 470 feet fallen.
6th second of falling, 192 feet per second, 662 feet fallen. (With the caveat that these speeds ignore wind resistance and terminal velocity.)

If the Dragon still has any kind of action left (i.e. he was still in his first Move, and hasn't attacked yet), and hasn't yet made a turn this round, then he should be able to get some flight control after 3 seconds, And since his speed at that point is well below his flight speed, he should at a minimum be able to make a controlled landing.

So any height of 200 feet or higher he could save himself from falling damage. He'd still be on the ground, but he'd probably be pissed. Block him higher up and he may well be able to pull out of that dive.

Now, want the ugly, R.A.W. solution? If the Dragon Spots the wall (which I've said I'd give him straight up), his best bet is to try and run into it. At that point, it being an Invisible obstacle, he has a 50% chance of missing entirely.