Do Demon Lords/Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers as gods do?

dead · Jan 11, 2010

Do Demon Lords and the Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers in the same way gods do? And if so, why aren't they divine?

I understand that in default D&D you can just worship "Goodness" or "Evil". Would worshipping a Demon Lord/Duke of Hell be a similar thing - with the demon/devil being a kind of focus for the worshipper?

What does it take for a Demon Lord/Duke of Hell to ascend to true godhood? I believe Lolth ascended to godhood at some stage and possibly Orcus?

I can't help but think of Iuz, too. He was the offspring of a Demon Lord and a powerful human witch. He is effectively a cambion (half demon/half human) but he rose to godhood and is now far more powerful than his demon lord father, Graz'zt!

Runestar · Jan 11, 2010

Do Demon Lords and the Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers in the same way gods do?

No. So clerics would have to worship ideals related to them in order to get divine spells.

What does it take for a Demon Lord/Duke of Hell to ascend to true godhood?

Some plot hook.

Some demon lords are no less powerful than gods though.

dead · Jan 11, 2010

Runestar said:
No. So clerics would have to worship ideals related to them in order to get divine spells.

This makes me wonder, do gods even grant divine spells to their worshippers? Or do their worshippers just worship ideals related to them?

I'm pretty sure in older editions of the game (1E and 2E anyway), gods directly granted divine spells.

Could divine magic exist in a universe without gods?

Runestar said:
Some demon lords are no less powerful than gods though.

In 3E, gods were considerably more powerful than demon lords. Iuz could easily destroy his old man, Graz'zt.

Desdichado · Jan 11, 2010

In many rulesets, they do. At least since 3e (I don't know anything about 4e) that's been optionally true, and the demon lords and archdevils have had domains and everything.

Jack99 · Jan 11, 2010

If. You. Want. Them. To.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Jan 11, 2010

dead said:
Do Demon Lords and the Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers in the same way gods do? And if so, why aren't they divine?

I understand that in default D&D you can just worship "Goodness" or "Evil". Would worshipping a Demon Lord/Duke of Hell be a similar thing - with the demon/devil being a kind of focus for the worshipper?

What does it take for a Demon Lord/Duke of Hell to ascend to true godhood? I believe Lolth ascended to godhood at some stage and possibly Orcus?

I can't help but think of Iuz, too. He was the offspring of a Demon Lord and a powerful human witch. He is effectively a cambion (half demon/half human) but he rose to godhood and is now far more powerful than his demon lord father, Graz'zt!

It depends on your setting. There is no rule that limits you in what a hypothetical demon prince might be able to do.

The default Points of Light (PoL) setting of 4E has demon worshippers, but no demon gods. It seems that in that setting, there is a little more to being a god than just having worshippers.

Orcus certainly tries to ascent to godhood. A good way to achieve godhood always seems to be to kill an existing god and take his place. Orcus seems to be looking in the Raven Queen's direction for that (in the aforementioned Points of Light setting at least.)

Runestar · Jan 11, 2010

This makes me wonder, do gods even grant divine spells to their worshippers? Or do their worshippers just worship ideals related to them?

In Forgotten realms, you had to worship a god to receive divine spells. Though provisions were later made for druids (who could simply choose to revere nature itself) and clerics of dead gods (requiring you to waste a feat).

Not so sure about other settings.

Otherwise, I suppose the distinction between the 2 would be quite fine, and the ramifications of this likely won't be felt until after you die (assuming you went to your god's realm if you worshiped one or get branded as one of the false if you didn't).

Heck, the fluff of ur-priests has them stealing divine power.

Shemeska · Jan 11, 2010

Yes, worshippers of archfiends have received divine spells. The question is just who is providing the divine magic to their clerics though. In some editions is was the fiend itself granting the power (and in some editions various archfiends have also been overtly both gods and archfiends, such as Orcus, Demogorgon, etc). In late 3e the Fiendish Codex series had a really cool compromise position that had the non divine 3e archfiends still granting spells as essentially conduits to the inherent power of the Abyss, etc.

And mechanics aside, the flavor text and in-game history has very often muddied the question of who exactly is more powerful (and when and where) regarding the gods versus archfiends question. Grazzt has never been a deity, in fact he openly avoided gaining divine power (viewing it as too much as a potential weakness and hating the obligations that would come with the power), and some have suggested that his son Iuz as a deity was more powerful. Yet plenty of examples exist through the body of lore to suggest that gods don't muck with the fiends in their home planes for very good historical reasons, and the fiends likewise don't easily throw their weight around against gods on the prime material where the gods would seem to have the advantage.

One of the more amusing instances was a situation where the demon(obyrith) lord Pale Night is inside of Lolth's divine domain and just openly ignores the restrictions on teleportation that Lolth as a god, inside of her own divine domain, laid down. They just didn't have any effect on her. None at all. That's not supposed to happen, but it did.

And fwiw, Orcus began as a mortal, died, became an archfiend, gained godhood, died, rose as Tenebrous, died again, rose back to archfiend status. Complex. And Lolth on the other hand started as a goddess, was stripped of most of her divinity, exiled into the Abyss, and gradually regained her full divine power. But outside of some titles and semantics, she was never actually an archfiend (something that sort of requires you to be an actual fiend).

I have absolutely no idea off the top of my head what the 4e planar material retcons/just doesn't address/handles differently from the above. But it's your campaign so pick and choose what works best for you.

Umbran · Jan 11, 2010

Jack99 said:
If. You. Want. Them. To.

Yes. There is no one universally accepted metaphysic of D&D, that all games adhere to. Whether the bigger demons or devils grant spells to worshipers is entirely up to the particular DM. How one rises to the ranks of the divine, or to granting spells (as these might be different) is also up to the DM.

the Jester · Jan 11, 2010

Shemeska said:
And Lolth on the other hand started as a goddess, was stripped of most of her divinity, exiled into the Abyss, and gradually regained her full divine power. But outside of some titles and semantics, she was never actually an archfiend (something that sort of requires you to be an actual fiend).

Unless, of course, you go back to the original source- the 1e Fiend Folio and material, wherein she is clearly a demon prince. She's even in the FF under "demon". All this "Lolth is a god, rawr" stuff is stuff the Forgotten Realms foisted on her (although to be honest, the 1e Deities & Demigods book has her in it, but it also plainly states that archdevils and demon princes and their ilk are the equivalent of lesser gods, and it is in this context that she appears in the work).