Do Demon Lords/Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers as gods do?

[dead]

In the original Deities and Demigods, I think it went by spell level. So low level spells came from "faith alone", then from powerfull non-divine beings, then from full gods, with only the greatest gods granting 7th level spells, then the highest. (or at least that is how I remember it). This implies that uber-fiends can grant some, but not all spells.

Yes, I remember that rule! I think it went something like:

All clerics can cast spells of 1st & 2nd level from faith alone (no prayer necessary). Spells of 3rd level and higher, however, need to be prayed for and are granted to the cleric by the deity.

Demigods grant spells up to 5th level
Lesser Gods grant spells up to 6th level
Greater Gods grant spells up to 7th level (maximum cleric spell level in 1E)

 

[dead]

In Dragonlance, there are two varieties of divine magic. The first is that granted by the gods. Clerics receive that power directly.

The second variety is called mysticism. During the early Age of Mortals, divine magic left with the gods. Mortals discovered an ancient form of divine magic called mysticism, which is ambient divine magic. It's generated by the power of life on the world of Krynn.

This poses the question of why worship the gods in the first place? The gods of Krynn are fickle and cause so much strife - just look at the world's history. Krynn survived perfectly well for nearly 40 years without the gods during the Age of Mortals. The people discovered divine magic through mysticism as you describe; they no longer needed to prostrate themselves before the gods.

I wonder what would happen to Krynn if the faith in gods dried up and mysticism took over? It stands to reason the world wouldn't disintgrate as it survived perfectly fine without the gods during the Age of Mortals. The sun still rose, the tides still came in and out, life went on while the absent gods tried to find their missing world.

 

[dead]

In my campaign, no, not really.

Anyone can do the divine thing, but it takes practice, willpower, and a certain way of looking at the world. Along with a few words of Supernal.

Back in the day the gods realized that they could teach mortal creatures how to use "divine" powers. They couched their teachings in prayers and rituals because it was easier for their subjects to remember over generations - and it had the added benefit of indoctrinating them to a specific world view.

The power doesn't actually come from the gods; it's more like "I think the world should work like this", a few words of Supernal, and the will to make it so.

I like the sound of this but how do you explain arcane magic? How did mortals learn the language of arcane magic and the rituals involved to cast arcane spells? Did the gods teach them also?

 

[TerraDave]

In my current campaign, I have divided divine beings into gods--true divinities that form an intergral part of the comsos--and incarnates--more like the gods in D&D that includes Saint Cuthbert, Tiamat, Asmodues, Orcus, and whoever else needs to get thrown in there for the campaign.

This allows for magic weilding cultists but keeps "real" gods on a seperate level.

 

[Dragonhelm]

This poses the question of why worship the gods in the first place? The gods of Krynn are fickle and cause so much strife - just look at the world's history. Krynn survived perfectly well for nearly 40 years without the gods during the Age of Mortals. The people discovered divine magic through mysticism as you describe; they no longer needed to prostrate themselves before the gods.

I would contest that the people of Krynn survived perfectly well. Takhisis was still there, preparing for the War of Souls. In the meantime, Ansalon was ruled by five dragon overlords who terraformed the hell out of Ansalon and made life miserable.

It took the gods, specifically Takhisis, to break their reign. Some of the other gods, like Chislev, are trying to undo the damage done to the continent.

The theme of the Age of Mortals, post-War of Souls, is that people have a choice. "May the gods guide your way, or not, as you choose."

I wonder what would happen to Krynn if the faith in gods dried up and mysticism took over? It stands to reason the world wouldn't disintgrate as it survived perfectly fine without the gods during the Age of Mortals. The sun still rose, the tides still came in and out, life went on while the absent gods tried to find their missing world.

Yeah, but the world suffered.

From a gaming standpoint, mysticism was a replacement for cleric magic. It was given some good flavor in the SAGA rules system. The mystic in 3.5 was to the cleric what the sorcerer was to the wizard. So yeah, Krynn can survive. But it loses so many themes without the gods.

Mysticism could be adapted to other worlds. Thematically, it's similar to the Force (minus the midichlorians). It's a magical power of life. It can be the source of divine magic. In 4e, you could expand on that to include primal and psionic magic too. For Dragonlance, I use mysticism as one possible source of the divine, primal, and psionic power sources. And yes, I do use the psionic power source since a few of the Spheres of Mysticism were borderline psionics anyway.

 

[Shemeska]

Unless, of course, you go back to the original source- the 1e Fiend Folio and material, wherein she is clearly a demon prince. She's even in the FF under "demon". All this "Lolth is a god, rawr" stuff is stuff the Forgotten Realms foisted on her (although to be honest, the 1e Deities & Demigods book has her in it, but it also plainly states that archdevils and demon princes and their ilk are the equivalent of lesser gods, and it is in this context that she appears in the work).

Yeah the deific status of archfiends bounced around from source to source in 1e. While the earliest source would imply she's a demon lord, it was certainly retconned as D&D developed, with the initially FR origin myth of Araushnee / Lolth being adopted as the default history for Lolth in D&D as a whole.

 

[James Jacobs]

Whether or not the powerful fiends can grant spells is pretty much a world-by-world answer, as folks have mentioned already; it really has no impact whatsoever on rule mechanics, and the games (whatever edition you play) work the same either way.

I've always allowed demon lords/archdevils/etc. to grant spells to their clerics and other divine spellcaster minions in games I've run. And that's certainly how it works in Golarion. Because spellcasting demon worshipers make for great bad guys!

 

[Cyronax]

Well 4e does make at least one assumption about the power of devils via Asmodeus's divinity. The fact that he's a full blown god (according to Phb and Dmg (not in my campaigns!)) indicates that perhaps he's the conduit for the divine magic of devil worshipers?

As for demons and other fiends ..... I tend to view warlocks (for PCs) and similar themed things (for NPCs) as their method of influencing the mortal world (aside from outright intervention or sending direct agents).

But "As you like it," is the best answer with most world-building questions (for the DM and often the players).

C.I.D.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Whether or not the powerful fiends can grant spells is pretty much a world-by-world answer, as folks have mentioned already; it really has no impact whatsoever on rule mechanics, and the games (whatever edition you play) work the same either way.

I've always allowed demon lords/archdevils/etc. to grant spells to their clerics and other divine spellcaster minions in games I've run. And that's certainly how it works in Golarion. Because spellcasting demon worshipers make for great bad guys!

Exactly. Though I have to admit, it's hard to shift from the mindset that divine magic comes from the gods.

In Dragonlance, you would not gain divine magic from a demon or devil. Demons and devils serve the gods. What I've done, though, is have a demon serve as a patron for a warlock. As a rule, they wouldn't grant arcane magic, but it works just fine as the exception to the rule.

I would also not have clerics of demons in Dark Sun, for setting flavor reasons.

However, I think I would allow it for generic worlds such as the Forgotten Realms. Kossuth was a deity in prior editions, but they made him a primordial for 4e. If he can grant spells, why not a devil or demon?

 

[Voadam]

In Forgotten realms, you had to worship a god to receive divine spells. Though provisions were later made for druids (who could simply choose to revere nature itself) and clerics of dead gods (requiring you to waste a feat).

I thought in the 3e FRCS druids had to pick a nature deity and could not just revere nature itself. Where is the later exception?