Do Demon Lords/Dukes of Hell grant spells to worshippers as gods do?

[LostSoul]

I like the sound of this but how do you explain arcane magic? How did mortals learn the language of arcane magic and the rituals involved to cast arcane spells? Did the gods teach them also?

I'm not exactly sure yet. I don't think the gods taught them (Corellon may have taught the Eladrin, he's crazy like that). The devils/fey/stars may have made pacts with the first Warlocks and taught them the rituals and formulae that make up arcane spells.

Arcane magic does something the gods can't do - it creates. It also uses Supernal. And Int has something to do with it. Not sure yet.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

In Eberron, the source of divine magic is impossible to determine with any real confidence. Worshippers of the various religions generally believe that the gods exist and grant spells, but even they can't deny that some people who don't worship gods at all, or who worship non-deific entities like demon overlords or daelkyr, still possess divine powers.

The usual theory from the followers of the Sovereign Host is that the gods - either the Host or their counterparts in the Dark Six - are the real source of these powers. Non-religious scholars have suggested that divine power can be drawn from the shattered remnants of Siberys, the Dragon Above (a ring of glowing fragments that encircles the planet) and/or the energies of Khyber, the Dragon Below, and some of these scholars go so far as to suggest that all divine energy comes from these sorts of sources, and that the gods either don't exist or aren't directly responsible for divine spells. The idea of gods and other entities as a "focus" for magic drawn from a more universal source is relevant here.

Meanwhile you have followers of other faiths, like the elves of Aerenal who believe that their Priests of Transition draw their divine powers from the gestalt created by all of their deathless/undead ancestors, who inhabit a tomb city and act as a guiding body for their living descendants, or the kalashtar followers of the Path of Inspiration who more or less don't worry about where their divine powers come from.

 

[countgray]

In 3e/3.5e archfiends and celestial paragons COULD grant spells as long as the PC took a feat that represented making a pact with them. A PC could only ever take one of the 6 feats.

The feats were:
Scion of Sorrow (take a yugoloth lord as your patron) [vile]
Disciple of Darkness (take an archdevil lord as your patron) [vile]
Thrall to Demon (take a demon lord as your patron) [vile]
Knight of Stars (take an eladrin paragon as your patron) [exalted]
Favored of the Companions (take Talisid or a guardinal paragon as your patron) [exalted]
Servant of Heaven (take a tome archon as your patron) [exalted]

These feats were featured in the Book of Vile Darkness & Book of Exalted Deeds respectively.

There wasn't (IIRC) a corresponding feat for Slaad lords, although arguably the idea of binding oneself to a slaad is anthema to their anarchic philosophy. Perhaps the Modrons would be game for it, although they were hardly even mentioned in 3E.

Eric Boyd (noted freelance designer for D&D and especially the Forgotten Realms) opined on a couple of occasions that he was of the opinion that if you sacrificed one of your feats, then you should be able to worship a potted plant. And that was likely where they were heading, I gathered, and tracks with how I would handle it in my campaign (were anyone to ask) that if you took a feat representing making a special pact to take some kind of immortal entity as your patron, then you should be able to get spells from that entity. I would probably use that for abstract concepts too, like "Love", or unassigned portfolios, or even powerful liches, dragons, etc.

I figure the entity would in turn be channeling the energy to power the spells from whatever it derived its source of power was, be it a demon lord's layer, a devil's dominion in Hell, a Modron's gear, the negative energy plane for an arch-lich, etc.

The point is that there definitely was a mechanic that allowed fliend lords and celestial paragons to grant spells to clerics that took them as a patron.

It should be noted, that the feat wasn't entirely worthless in its own right, in addition to granting spells from your chosen patron it granted a luck bonus on certain rolls, which made up somewhat for having to take the feat to worship a non-divine entity.

 

[Voadam]

In 3e and 2e you could follow concepts or philosophies as a cleric and get divine powered spells. It always seemed wierd to me that archfiends could not directly be the focus of a cleric's devotion, and would need to make a deal with an evil deity to power up their cults through divine sleight of hand. It is trivially easy to say a cleric is devoted to LE as epitomized by devils/specific archdevil or pacted to one and then power up the cult.

The only mechanical difference is that they don't technically have a god for purposes of the specifics about cleric god restrictions, such as not casting spells of an alignment opposed to his gods or having to be close to his gods alignment or the code of conduct.

Come to think of it you could technically do the same thing say for following LE and using Hextor as your patron instead of using Hextor as your god and avoid all the alignment and code crap.

 

[Voadam]

Yes, I remember that rule! I think it went something like:

All clerics can cast spells of 1st & 2nd level from faith alone (no prayer necessary). Spells of 3rd level and higher, however, need to be prayed for and are granted to the cleric by the deity.

Demigods grant spells up to 5th level
Lesser Gods grant spells up to 6th level
Greater Gods grant spells up to 7th level (maximum cleric spell level in 1E)

I think that was in the 1e DMG first.

 

[LostSoul]

I think that was in the 1e DMG first.

As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth, and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.​

AD&D Legends and Lore, 6th printing. It's the only AD&D book I have left.

 

[Shemeska]

I thought in the 3e FRCS druids had to pick a nature deity and could not just revere nature itself. Where is the later exception?

I know that there was a druidic lich in a late 3.x FR book working with the Eldreth Veluthra who was notable for teaching them how to revere Nature itself for divine spells, so as to get around the fact that the entire non-Drow elven pantheon refused to provide them divine magic.

Eric Boyd (noted freelance designer for D&D and especially the Forgotten Realms) opined on a couple of occasions that he was of the opinion that if you sacrificed one of your feats, then you should be able to worship a potted plant.

I forget which book it was, but there was a Shadowrun (3) book that had some of the shadowtalk banter going on about shamanic totems and their relation to either actual pre-existant metaplanar entities or just deriving from the pure will of the shaman themselves, and there was a mention of an orcish shaman of "Toaster".

 

[Alzrius]

As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth, and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.​

AD&D Legends and Lore, 6th printing. It's the only AD&D book I have left.

I can't recall which one, but I distinctly remember a 2E Planescape supplement that amended this.

It was discussing worship of Abyssal Lords, and said something to the effect of 1st- and 2nd-level level spells were gained through faith alone. 3rd-level spells had to be imparted by the Lord into a vassal who had to personally deliver them to the worshipper in order for said worshipper to receive them. 4th-level spells could only be received by a worshipper from the Abyssal Lord directly (e.g. had to be in its presence). I took this to apply to pretty much all planar powers (e.g. archomentals, slaad lords, etc).

The other 2E divine handbooks were pretty clear on the higher-level spells. Demigods could grant spells of up to 5th level. Lesser gods could grant spells of up to 6th level. And intermediate and greater gods could grant spells of any level (including, according to a Sage Advice column, quest spells - though I read somewhere that on Greyhawk only greater gods could grant quest spells).

Eric Boyd (noted freelance designer for D&D and especially the Forgotten Realms) opined on a couple of occasions that he was of the opinion that if you sacrificed one of your feats, then you should be able to worship a potted plant. And that was likely where they were heading, I gathered, and tracks with how I would handle it in my campaign (were anyone to ask) that if you took a feat representing making a special pact to take some kind of immortal entity as your patron, then you should be able to get spells from that entity. I would probably use that for abstract concepts too, like "Love", or unassigned portfolios, or even powerful liches, dragons, etc.

I can't recall anything specific in 3E FR about druids being able to worship "nature" as opposed to a deity. That said, the "Fallen Gods and Nondivine Entities" sidebar on page 46 of Power of Faerun nicely summarizes what feats are in what books that let you worship and gain spells from things that aren't (living) gods - it's on the same page as the Heretic of the Faith feat, which lets you twist a god's teachings and still be supported with spells and abilities.

 

[Shemeska]

I can't recall which one, but I distinctly remember a 2E Planescape supplement that amended this.

It was in the Hellbound: The Blood War box set, in the section on fiendish priests.

 

[Thanael]

One of the more amusing instances was a situation where the demon(obyrith) lord Pale Night is inside of Lolth's divine domain and just openly ignores the restrictions on teleportation that Lolth as a god, inside of her own divine domain, laid down. They just didn't have any effect on her. None at all. That's not supposed to happen, but it did.

Is this from on of the Fiendiesh Codex books?