No more WotC Star Wars - announcement

gallandro

Explorer
More to the point, as Gareth-Michael Skarka said over on RPGnet, is the fact that Lucasfilm and Hasbro have extended the Star Wars licensing deal until 2018 or 2020 (reports vary), and there is zero chance that the tabletop roleplaying game rights will be carved out of that package for another company outside the Hasbro to use.

And as I pointed out in that thread he's wrong. The license for RPGs and minis was handled in a separate license by WOTC... not Hasbro. Heck if Lucasfilm wanted they could simply hire a small staff of experienced game designers and handle the whole thing internally and release via Del Rey.


Yancy
 

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mhacdebhandia

Explorer
You are assuming that a company like EA/BioWare has no interest in turning a pnp game and setting development into a marketing and breeding ground for their own Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO game.
Yes, I am, because the kind of money you can make by publishing a tabletop roleplaying game means nothing compared to the money you can make by publishing an MMO - which routinely have budgets and production schedules in excess of those allowed to the biggest film productions.

If Star Wars: The Old Republic has only 1 million subscribers - which would qualify it as more or less a failure in a market where World of Warcraft has 12 million subscribers - that's still something like $15 million in gross subscription revenue per month. Then you have to figure out how long it will take them to recoup the development costs for a massively multiplayer, fully-voiced game.

The only reason for BioWare to spend any money on producing a tabletop tie-in game to their MMO would be if the heads of the company are willing to take what amounts to a loss (in opportunity-cost terms) for the sake of warm fuzzy feelings about the idea of having a tabletop game.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
You are assuming the only reason they would do it would be to make money in and of itself. They don't think like that. And when your dev budget is that high and most of this content is being produced anyways, there are other issues at hand.

For example, there are marketing aspects to a core group of people that they want to attract to SW:TOR. They also know that gathering groups of people into their games with pre-established social ties builds in a critical social aspect to their game at an early stage. This aids in raising monthly subscription retention, reduces churn and adds to building and maintaining guilds early on after the game's release to act as a support structure for the broad mass of their other transitory subscribers.

It also increases word of mouth amongst gamers for comparatively little.

There are other compelling reasons to do so. Importantly, it serves as a breeding ground and test bed for their own setting ideas and as a means of identifying individuals who can write for the setting. BioWare has had a great deal of success in hiring writers and designer from within their game communities -- a scene which has all but vanished for them since 2004

Moreover, if the product is promoting the game directly, in respect of which Lucasfilm is a co-principal, the license fees are no longer an issue either -- because there won't be any.


It's not as if BioWare does not have people working full time on background bibles and setting fluff that we will never, ever, see. They do. They've been doing it, in fact, FOR YEARS. The cost of art for an outfit like BioWare is minuscule. They have most of those artists not as freelancers, but as full time in-house artists anyways. The material is there already and the marginal cost of making it publishable is very small.

Have you looked at their website? It's a massive amount of free content that is exactly what is needed to do a successful pnp RPG tie-in. Add some crunch? You are good to go.

It takes a vast amount of money and testing to put their setting information for SW:TOR and plot hooks in front of a single in house beta team. In some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars for relatively small plot arcs.

In contrast, at the budget levels they are working with, it is essentially FREE to get test their plots and characters among fans when the game need only be put into print -- and even less if much of it is released online only.

I found it interesting to note that Lucasfilm on Starwars.com specifically mentioned the "growth of online gaming" as one of the two reasons that WotC supposedly cited as their reason for not renewing the license.

Why cite a reason which is not a temporary matter which is subject to the business cycle? It's akin to shooting down the long-term viability of your own license in a news release. How the hell does that assist your business? Answer: it doesn't.

Given that Lucas then reaffirms the strength of all of these the product lines in the same news release with a reminder to people to check the space in the coming months for new announcements suggests to me that something is up.

Not saying it's a sure thing by any means. But SW:TOR is where the action is in the coming years. EA and Lucas have essentially bet the farm on it. They aren't going to leave that success to chance, imo.
 
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ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
Just to bring it up, the online bit might indeed be why the license isn't being renewed - Lucas Arts is bringing up the cost of the license, and WotC doesn't want to pay that much extra.

It's not like Lucas Arts is known for never making boneheaded business decisions, here.
 

Pbartender

First Post
While that would be nice, they're having a hard enough time getting the Dresden Files RPG out (the process started 2005(?), don't remember), and IMHO a FATE-based "official" Star Wars RPG would run into so many obstacles that it would take a longer time to get that going.

I know... I know...

Hence the "will never happen" bit.

Oh well.
 

Even though they were on a separate license, it just seems odd that Hasbro would let WotC flounder...
This is the one announcement that has me scratching my head. I have never given much credence to the "WotC is in trouble" rumors but this would be the first thing that make me think it might have even the smallest kernel of truth. I think it would great if Hasbro dumped WotC and they had to fight for superiority again, but, it ain't happening.

(Just conjecture) I wonder if LucasArts already has a plan in the works, of if this was just the best way to kill off SAGA before they upgrade to a 4e style system? Let's face it, it wasn't really all that long ago that the SAGA update hit the bricks.

I mean how would it look if yet ANOTHER edition update came out of WotC's doors?
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
(Just conjecture) I wonder if LucasArts already has a plan in the works, of if this was just the best way to kill off SAGA before they upgrade to a 4e style system? Let's face it, it wasn't really all that long ago that the SAGA update hit the bricks.

I mean how would it look if yet ANOTHER edition update came out of WotC's doors?

Agreed. It would look pretty bad. And given that there are a lot of people who stuck with 3.5 or bailed to Pathfinder - I expect that WotC would rather not go through that with their current customers once again. Revise, reset, resell as a business strategy reaches a point of diminishing returns in the short run.

Something like this would certainly fit the facts if, say, WotC suddenly announced they were at the end of the product cycle and were no longer going to produce new SAGA products.

And then more or less sat on the license for a year to as many as three years, doing little more than making new mins and otherwise supporting their existing product line with moderate online articles and reprints of existing material... and then came out with a new edition.

That would make sense, if they believed they had super-saturated the market and it was time to give the RPG line a rest.

But the problem is, not renewing a license at a time where there is a new major MMO to be released in a year's time, and a potential live action TV series a few years off (if it happens - I'm sceptical of this long-rumoured live action series, tbh) amounts to hoping nobody picks it up in the interim -- and that you can then you re-license it in, say, two years and carry on with a whole new system form that point. (SAGA is already very 4E, so I'd say more 4.5 or even 5th ed).

Whatever the case, while that might transpire in the future, I can't see it now as part of "The Plan". It might be the result of good luck -- but not the result of good management, imo.

I think what happened from WotC's side is that the market has been flooded with minis, has been saturated with a multiplicity of three SW Rules systems in ten years and that this particular system is pretty much at the end of its life cycle anyways. Sure, they could put out some more products for another two years, say, but it would be pretty much filling in the corners at this point with books and rules that are increasingly more narrowly focused. It just didn't make sense on an economic basis for them to go forward with license renewal, much as they would have liked to, and so they didn't. Pure business decision. The End.

The view from Lucasfilm is of course very different. They want to make money from the property (direct $$, it's what they do with Star Wars , after all) and they want to use it to bolster and leverage and reinforce the overall success of their other products and brands (synergy - indirect $$).

I think we can take WotC at their word on this one. As for Lucas? We'll have to see what their fallback plan is. Given their release, it looks like they probably have one. We'll see.
 
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ggroy

First Post
Even though they were on a separate license, it just seems odd that Hasbro would let WotC flounder...
This is the one announcement that has me scratching my head. I have never given much credence to the "WotC is in trouble" rumors but this would be the first thing that make me think it might have even the smallest kernel of truth. I think it would great if Hasbro dumped WotC and they had to fight for superiority again, but, it ain't happening.

I doubt Hasbro will dump WotC by selling it to another rpg company. The asking price would most likely be too cost prohibitive for even the larger rpg companies (ie. Mongoose, White Wolf, Fantasy Flight, Paizo, etc ...).

Most likely Hasbro will either "shelve" the WotC intellectual property for years, or an outsider non-gaming company loaded with cash buys them up (ie. such as a leveraged buyout type firm).
 

Pramas

Explorer
Even though they were on a separate license, it just seems odd that Hasbro would let WotC flounder...

I don't think they are. The Star Wars RPG never sold as well as D&D and the royalties for the license were significant. So if you compare the average Star Wars RPG book to the average D&D book, the Star Wars book sold fewer units and WotC made less money off each one. It's not a surprise they'd rather use the resources that went into Star Wars on something potentially more profitable.
 

ggroy

First Post
I don't think they are. The Star Wars RPG never sold as well as D&D and the royalties for the license were significant. So if you compare the average Star Wars RPG book to the average D&D book, the Star Wars book sold fewer units and WotC made less money off each one. It's not a surprise they'd rather use the resources that went into Star Wars on something potentially more profitable.

One could ask whether Star Wars SAGA ever made ANY net profit for WotC in the first place. :uhoh:
 

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