Skill Challenges: How Much Have They Improved?

I've read all the articles and advice and, as evidenced here, there are still questions. And I still suck at them.

This is just a bit of meta-humor.

Skill Challenge: Creating and Running a Skill Challenge

Complexity

This is a Complexity 3 skill challenge. You need 8 successes before 3 failures.

Primary Skills

Primary skills are divided into skills that help you prepare for the skill challenge, and Diplomacy checks to actually run the skill challenge.

History (Moderate DC): You recall what has worked and what has not worked from previous game sessions and use the information to craft your skill challenge. You can successfully use this skill twice during the challenge. A failed History check does not count as a failure for the purpose of the skill challenge, but each failed check imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks to run the skill challenge (see below).

Insight (Moderate DC): You use your knowledge of your player's preferences to craft your skill challenge. You can successfully use this skill twice during the challenge. A failed Insight check does not count as a failure for the purpose of the skill challenge, but each failed check imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks to run the skill challenge (see below).

Streetwise (Moderate DC): You ask for help from the other posters on ENWorld to craft your skill challenge. You can successfully use this skill twice during the challenge. A failed Streetwise check does not count as a failure for the purpose of the skill challenge, but each failed check imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks to run the skill challenge (see below).

Diplomacy (Moderate DC): You run the skill challenge, trying to ensure that the events unfold plausibly, that you communicate all the necessary information, and that all your players are engaged and involved.

Secondary Skills

Each of the following secondary skills may be used once during the skill challenge to negate a failed Diplomacy check.

Bluff (Hard DC): The players spot an inconsistency, but you manage to fast-talk your way out of the mess.

Intimidate (Hard DC): The players think you are being illogical, but you manage to browbeat them into accepting your ruling.

Thievery (Hard DC): The dice come up wrong, but you manage to "accidentally" tip it over to make it show the right number.

Success

Your players enjoy the skill challenge and treat you with respect. You gain a +4 bonus to Athletics checks to grab the last slice of pizza.

Failure

Your players find the skill challenge boring and think you are lame. You take a -4 penalty to Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks with your players until you next take an extended rest. You may trigger the skill challenge "Gripe about my terrible gaming experience on ENWorld".

Those are good thoughts, Firelance. Half of my post was to say that, hey look, there isn't any system for making skill checks in 4E.

For example, I could easy see a group going with having a player state "I make a Diplomacy check" as their system for determining when a skill check is made.

Anyway, let's look deeper... and ask a lot of stupid questions to reveal things that are implicit to us old hands but can confuse people.

When to call for a skill check:

FireLance said:

In general, when the players want to do something and there is some doubt whether or not they will succeed. The same approach applies to skill challenges. Sometimes, the players can come up with an idea that, in the DM's judgement, will certainly succeed or certainly fail and there is no need for a check (at least, from the perspective of that DM). However, most times, there will be varying chances for success and failure and the DM should call for a check.

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What I get from this is "The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check."

Question: How does success tie into the action? Let's say I state my action: "I tell the guard to get lost." What is "success" in this case?

Question the Second: What happens in a skill challenge if the success of the declared action is not in doubt? Does it add into success or failures? What if the declared action resolves the skill challenge?

How to pick the skill and who decides what skill is picked:

FireLance said:

The DM, with inputs from the players. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, but the players may be able to think of an approach that could plausibly work (again, in the DM's judgement) that the DM had not thought of previously, and the DM should then decide on the appropriate skill to use.

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"The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action."

Question: How does the DM decide what skills would be useful?

Question: How does this tie into the player's declared action? Does the player's declared action affect the DM's decision in any way? If so, how?

Outcomes:

FireLance said:

As with the skills used, the DM should have a general sense of what a successful check or a failed check means, both in terms of the individual check, and in the broader context of the skill challenge. This includes issues such as whether a successful check results in a single success for the purposes of the skill challenge, no successes but grants some other advantage, or results in two or more successes, and conversely, whether a failed check results in a single failure for the purposes of the skill challenge, no failures but imposes some other penalty, etc. In cases where the players come up an approach that the DM has not considered, he will have to make the decision on the spot. As for how, it all comes back to DM judgement again.

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"The DM determines what the result of the check means."

Question: How does the DM decide? Why would he make one decision over another?

Question: How does the player's stated action tie into this? Is the action resolved or not? If I declare an action that's in doubt, I make a successful check, do I carry out my action or not?

Question: How does the outcome of the declared action interact with the skill challenge's successes and failures? If I declare an action that requires a skill check - "I stab the Duke through the heart" - and succeed, does that count as a success in the skill challenge?

On modifiers:

FireLance said:

You guessed it - DM judgement.

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"The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll."

Question: Why would the DM decide to apply a modifier to a skill check? What is the basis for his decision? Is it based on the situation in the game world, the enjoyment of the players, the difficulty he wants to impose on the players, the needs for the DM to see his pre-written story play out in the way he wants, because he likes Tom better than Jim, or what?

On DCs:

FireLance said:

DM judg- oh, wait. Here there are two basic approaches. If the DM has already established the in-game difficulty of a task (for example, by looking up the tables of common skill DCs in the PH) he can use that to set the level of the skill challenge. Alternatively, the DM can select the level of challenge and change the DCs to make them fit with the suggested DCs for a challenge of that level. If this makes the DCs different from the suggested DCs in the PH, the DM should also come up with a plausible in-game reason for why the task is easier or harder than normal on this specific occasion.

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"The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge."

Question: What would a DM pick an Easy DC over a Hard one? What is the difference between a Level 7 Easy DC and a Level 1 Moderate one?

Question: How does a DM decide what the level of the challenge should be?

Putting it all together now...

1. The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check.
2. The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action.
3. The DM determines what the result of the check means.
4. The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll.
5. The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge.

I would say that this isn't enough information to play the game. We have the skeleton of a system here but people are going to have to dress it up in their own way. Which can be a feature, but since people are having problems...

It also needs to be tied into the skill challenge mechanics. There are some other questions there: why would you decide to run a skill challenge, why would you set the complexity to one level and not another, what happens when the skill challenge is (or is not) resolved, and how actions, skill checks, and the results of checks interact with the successes and failures needed in the skill challenge.

I don't believe these questions are ever answered in a procedural, "This is how you do it" way. I could be wrong, though.

I think a lot of these questions, if not all, are answered in DMG2.

Sorry I havent read the thread.

But, can i say at the start I hated them, and wanted to quickly get them over with.

But now I have mellowed a bit, I quite like them when they interact with the game and not just boring XP collection.

When you can loose surges, gain info, loose a NPC off your side.

AbdulAlhazred said:

I think for the majority of DMs the concept that SCs should be dynamic and presented in the same fashion as any other sort of RP situation (in general) still hasn't been emphasized enough.

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Indeed.

I think skill challenges work like a charm unless the players realize they're in a skill challenge. As a DM I never announce one. The challenge is presented like any other description of the current situation and ends with the question "What do you do?"

The players simply state what their pcs do and I may ask for the occasional skill check. I'm tracking success/failure for relevant skill checks as they're being made and allow for auto-success/auto-failure when particularly (in)appropriate actions are taken by the pcs.

The problem is: This style of DMing skill challenges isn't well suited to be used in published material such as adventure modules. There isn't enough of a structure to allow a DM to run it smoothly unless the DM is already comfortable with running such 'free-style' skill challenges.

Having said all that, the presentation of skill challenges has improved in some of the more recent WotC products. E.g. 'The Plane Above' has an interesting tool-kit approach to create skill-challenges involving movement across Chernoggar. It presents about a dozen complexity 1 skill challenges that can be mixed and matched to create a single higher complexity skill challenge.
I've also seen a couple of good skill challenges in some of the RPGA adventure modules. I vaguely remember one involving trying to get into a fortress-like structure inside of a city with several different districts that I liked.

But again, I believe the main problem that still remains is that players should never realize they're in a skill challenge, otherwise they'll start to meta-game and act 'unnaturally' trying to always use their best skills or not participate at all for fear of failing.

FireLance said:

...I feel that not enough attention has been paid to presenting alternate failure conditions apart from the "three failures" model. IMO, the "three failures" model is one of the key factors that discourages players from participating in skill challenges since a failed skill check often results in an actual setback rather than simply a lack of progress.

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As I see it, there are two big issues with skill challenges; the one in the quote and pacing. Skill challenges are slow and boring, with many many rolls at routine difficulty. Where is the thrill? Where is the joy in taking on risks? Engaging in risky behavior in the current skill challenge rules is a sure way to fail; you should always pick skills where you have 80% or more to succeed or you are doomed from the beginning. I can't see how you can tweak the current system to fix that.

Most of the "fixes" I've read in Dragon seemed to introduce even more fiddly bits that slowed things down even further.

LostSoul said:

Half of my post was to say that, hey look, there isn't any system for making skill checks in 4E.

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It's true that there isn't a very mechanical system for running skill challenges, unlike the combat system and the system for making specific simple skill checks, e.g. opening a lock, jumping across a chasm, etc. I think it is because non-combat challenges are by their very nature more open-ended and possibly more complex as well. Even a specific example of a skill challenge is just that: a specific example. A DM who wants to make use of it will usually have change it to suit the specifics of their adventure, or alter the specifics of their adventure to suit the challenge.

Anyway, let's look deeper... and ask a lot of stupid questions to reveal things that are implicit to us old hands but can confuse people.

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Sure.

Question: How does success tie into the action? Let's say I state my action: "I tell the guard to get lost." What is "success" in this case?

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Presumably, the player said that because he wanted the guard to go away. In this case, success means that the guard leaves.

Question the Second: What happens in a skill challenge if the success of the declared action is not in doubt? Does it add into success or failures? What if the declared action resolves the skill challenge?

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What I would do is to add an automatic success or failure, possibly more than one successes or failures if it was a particularly good or bad action. If the DM thinks that it is not reasonable for the skill challenge to remain unresolved after the action, then he should declare that the skill challenge is resolved. (Such occurances should be uncommon, of course, and usually mean that the players did something that the DM did not expect.)

Question: How does the DM decide what skills would be useful?

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Ideally, before the DM presents the players with a challenge, he should have at least one solution (and preferably more) in mind. The skills that are useful ought to flow naturally from the solution that he has in mind.

Question: How does this tie into the player's declared action? Does the player's declared action affect the DM's decision in any way? If so, how?

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There are a few ways to handle this. The player may describe his action and state which skill he is using, the player may describe his action and the DM decides which skill the player is using based on that description and calls for that skill check. (On a personal note, I prefer the former approach.) Occasionally, the player may propose a course of action that the DM had not originally thought about. If the DM decides that the approach is viable, he may allow the player to use make a skill check to earn a success or gain some other benefit.

Question: How does the DM decide? Why would he make one decision over another?

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This is actually a very broad question and goes to the core of what it means to be a DM since one of the most basic responsibilities of being a DM is to answer the question, "What happens next?" Usually, the answer would be the most logical thing to happen, but occasionally, the DM might say that the most interesting (not necessarily logical, but ideally still plausible) thing happens instead.

Question: How does the player's stated action tie into this? Is the action resolved or not? If I declare an action that's in doubt, I make a successful check, do I carry out my action or not?

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For simple skill checks, a successful check usually means that the player's stated action is carried out successfully. In skill challenges, each successful check should convey a sense of progress, until the final successful check which overcomes the challenge.

Question: How does the outcome of the declared action interact with the skill challenge's successes and failures? If I declare an action that requires a skill check - "I stab the Duke through the heart" - and succeed, does that count as a success in the skill challenge?

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The DM should decide whether the proposed action will contribute to the skill challenge or not. As successful skill check that does not help advance the skill challenge should not earn any successes for the purpose of the skill challenge.

Question: Why would the DM decide to apply a modifier to a skill check? What is the basis for his decision? Is it based on the situation in the game world, the enjoyment of the players, the difficulty he wants to impose on the players, the needs for the DM to see his pre-written story play out in the way he wants, because he likes Tom better than Jim, or what?

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Ideally, it should be based on the situation in the game world. The DM may deem certain approaches to be more effective than others and use skill check modifiers to reward players who take those approaches. Ideally, the DM should allow the players the opportunity to discover these in the course of the game. For example, the DM may decide that the Duke is particularly susceptible to flattery, and that players who specifically mention that they flatter the Duke gain a bonus to Diplomacy checks. The players may discover this if they have won the confidence of the Duke's chief advisor, with a successful Streetwise check to learn rumors about the Duke, or with a successful Insight check after meeting the Duke in person.

Question: What would a DM pick an Easy DC over a Hard one? What is the difference between a Level 7 Easy DC and a Level 1 Moderate one?

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There is essentially no difference between them. It is simply a way of saying that a Modereately difficult skill check for a 1st-level character should be Easy for a 7th-level character. As for choosing an Easy DC over a Hard one, the DM should assess how likely the character's action is to succeed, or in the context of a skill challenge, how likely it is for the character's action to contribute to overcoming the skill challenge. If you think of the likelihood as a continuum from certain to succeed - likely to succeed - may succeed - unlikely to succeed - certain to fail, this translates into automatic success - Easy DC - Moderate DC - Hard DC - automatic failure.

Question: How does a DM decide what the level of the challenge should be?

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How does he decide what level monsters to use? Same thing.

Putting it all together now...

1. The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check.
2. The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action.
3. The DM determines what the result of the check means.
4. The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll.
5. The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge.

I would say that this isn't enough information to play the game. We have the skeleton of a system here but people are going to have to dress it up in their own way. Which can be a feature, but since people are having problems...

It also needs to be tied into the skill challenge mechanics. There are some other questions there: why would you decide to run a skill challenge, why would you set the complexity to one level and not another, what happens when the skill challenge is (or is not) resolved, and how actions, skill checks, and the results of checks interact with the successes and failures needed in the skill challenge.

I don't believe these questions are ever answered in a procedural, "This is how you do it" way. I could be wrong, though.

Click to expand...

As mentioned earlier, given the open-ended and complex nature of non-combat challenges, I am not sure that it is possible to provide simple rules for creating good skill challenges. Perhaps, when it comes to skill challenges, only the bare bones structure can be provided, in much the same way that when it comes to creating new monsters, only the basic statistics (defenses, damage, etc.) are given. Adding flavor, twists and interactivity to skill challenges may be something that has to be left to the individual DM.

Jhaelen said:

Indeed.

I think skill challenges work like a charm unless the players realize they're in a skill challenge. As a DM I never announce one. The challenge is presented like any other description of the current situation and ends with the question "What do you do?"

The players simply state what their pcs do and I may ask for the occasional skill check. I'm tracking success/failure for relevant skill checks as they're being made and allow for auto-success/auto-failure when particularly (in)appropriate actions are taken by the pcs.

The problem is: This style of DMing skill challenges isn't well suited to be used in published material such as adventure modules. There isn't enough of a structure to allow a DM to run it smoothly unless the DM is already comfortable with running such 'free-style' skill challenges.

[Snip]

But again, I believe the main problem that still remains is that players should never realize they're in a skill challenge, otherwise they'll start to meta-game and act 'unnaturally' trying to always use their best skills or not participate at all for fear of failing.

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I was going to post almost exactly the same thing, but you've said most of it, so I gave experience points instead The one thing I would add is that as a DM, a skill challenge is a great tool for when PCs come up with an off the wall plan (as PCs do), my initial response starts "Wtf? Oh, Ok. Level 5 skill challenge, 6 successes needed." And at that point I can turn the mechanics into asking for occasional rolls as they (and I) describe what's going on - and simply make a tally chart to see the progress.

I think it is also important to make a distinction between the type of skill challenge it is. I've been working with them since before the 4e rules were finalized, so I have seen them evolve significantly through their design. I am always an over-simplifier, so I like to think of them in 2 categories: "mechanics-focused" and "roleplay focused."

The mechanics-focused ones are those that generally happen in a very short time frame and often while something else is happening. An example would be the "Closing the Portal" skill challenge described in DMG2. In this way, the skill challenge is an extension of the combat, and the PCs should know they are in a skill challenge. The actions needed to try each skill should be clear so that the PCs can use tactics and strategy to get the right people doing the right jobs. Disarming traps and the like also fall into this category. For me, I like to create very focused and specific lists of skills that can be used, and sometimes even restrict the order in which they can be used.

The "roleplay-focused" skill challenges those that take place over a longer period of time and/or deal with less specific situations (social skill challenges or investigations being fitting examples). For these I almost never tell the PCs they are in a skill challenge, and I let them create their own methods of getting from point A to point B. For these I like to write the skill challenge more as a guide rather than as a blueprint, because the players should have the ability to roleplay and explore different paths of success. Of course there can be plently of overlap between the two, but the distinction helps me tackle them as a writer and as a DM.

What worries me when I discuss skill challenges with people is that I hear a lot of absolutes ("the PCs should never know they are in a skill challenge") when there is a time and a place for just about anything, depending on the skill challenge. I just completed an adventure that is meant to be run as a tournament, with parties getting scores for how they do in combat, skill challenges, etc. With that necessity guiding design, I had to create the skill challenge in such a way that it would run similarly at each table. So my mandate was the make the skill challenge fun and interesting, while at the same time making it run in such a way that the efforts could be compared from one group to the next. In doing so, I had to break a lot of what I have seen as "the rules" of how to create a skill challenge. It's like what jazz musician Charlie Parker once told a class of students: "Learn all the basics until you have it down--then forget all that **** and just play." I guess we'll see if it works.

What I try to tell the writers who I have worked with in the 40+ 4e adventures I have designed/developed/edited/playtested is that a skill challenge is nothing different than what good writers and DMs have always done. The skill challenge is just a way to codify it, forcing them to actually think through all of the options and therefore getting a better idea of what the PCs might do and what the results of success or failure might be.