Hacking GUMSHOE for a skill challenge

Quickleaf said:

Oops, the tracks are supposed to be human boot prints from the mages heading to their rendezvous point to cast linked portal to teleport back to Suleistarn.

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Doesn't the Linked Portal ritual require you to draw out a circle as the portal? Maybe that could generate another clue, even though the mages would probably have arranged to have it obscured once they had left (using some sort of summoned creature to mess up the drawing?). Maybe there are traces left of the 'rare chalks and inks' used to draw the circle?

Balesir said:

Doesn't the Linked Portal ritual require you to draw out a circle as the portal? Maybe that could generate another clue, even though the mages would probably have arranged to have it obscured once they had left (using some sort of summoned creature to mess up the drawing?). Maybe there are traces left of the 'rare chalks and inks' used to draw the circle?

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Yes, I have as a secondary clue identifiable with DC 30 Arcana chalk made from "ground blink dog bone - a vile component usedul in teleportation rituals."

The idea of there being a summoned monster about is great! I'm trying to have all the secondary clue checks involve risk on a failure...so in this case if the Arcana check is failed maybe the summoned air elemental (or whatever) returns to attack.

Quickleaf said:

Yeah, solving the mystery will be a matter of piecing together the "core clues" (and any additional secondary clues they uncover). So maybe overall number of success or failure is irrelevant?

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Ratskinner said:

GUMSHOE suggests a "scene" card to wave when they have uncovered all the clues in an area.

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I have a PDF of Trail of Cthulhu but haven't read much of it, so my GUMSHOE-fu is a bit weak.

But my understanding is that in GUMSHOE checks for secondary clues consume resources. The nearest analogue to that in 4e is the skill challenge - the failures are the player "resource" which, once expended, mean no more retries.

And with a skill challenge you also don't need a separate scene-card - you just need to signal, using whatever the standard method is at your table, that the challenge is over.

Here's how the whole thing has come together...



Dunneebrook Mystery
Investigative skill challenge; 8 core clues; DC 21 / 30

The village of Dunneebrook lies in ruins. Charred farmhouses, burgomaster's manor, and a ruined chapel still smolder as a light rain falls across the fields. A cluster of tents and horses are at the edge of what was once Dunneebrook, and soldiers wearing a coat of arms (a catoblepas head on a fess argent over gules) are burying bodies.

The Messenger: The messenger who warns the King, and by extension the PCs, of what has befallen Dunneebrook is named Darryl. He left under the burgomaster's instruction when it was clear the Wild Hunt had come (but before the mages arrival); the burgomaster gave him instructions to seek out Lord Polding (the nearest noble), but Darryl went to the King instead since Polding was fighting Bechaeux at the time and had never been much help before. While escaping the village, Darryl's horse spooked at the supernatural storm and he was knocked unconscious. When he came to Dunneebrook was sacked; gathering his wits, Darryl fled to warn the King.

Dunneebrook (common knowledge): Dunneebrook is a superstitious village known for its autumnal faerie market. Its 700 people are farmers and shepherds governed by a burgomaster who pays taxes to Lord Polding.

Lord Polding (History DC 21): Lord Polding is a minor noble who claims to have slain a catoblepas. His fief includes the villages Dunneebrook and Pondswallow, though he makes an ancestral claim to Bechaeux. Somehow he acquired a mercenary fighting force and has led several sorties against the Duke of Bechaeux. His coat of arms is a catoblepas head on a fess argent over gules.

Burgomaster's Manor
Core Clue: It is still burning down, but a metal strongbox contains a letter from Cerad Zforta, an emissary of Suleistarn (who the PCs have already run across), offering the burgomaster 2000 gold per brownie or weihon delivered to him.

• Endurance/Thievery DC 21: Pull out scroll from burning records, revealing letter from burgomaster to Cerad saying the burgomaster was wrong for agreeing, and that he was returning all the gold in expectation that the brownies and weihon be released, further threatening to advise the King. If failed, the PC takes 3d6 fire damage and the letter burns.

Charred Homes
Core Clue: Several bodies appear to have died from mixed causes - burning, suffocation, and broken bones/internal bleeding. Also, the PCs find an overturned platter at a doorstep which once held fruit and cream - a superstitious supper left for fairies.

• Arcana/Diplomacy DC 21: If a PC leaves out food in the platter, the last brownie named Soot will appear; if the PCs convince him of their good will he acts as their guide in the village, and relates tale of how the burgomaster captured the other brownies. If failed, Soot vanishes to warn the other fey in the area (dryad & Grigs) not to trust the PCs.
• Arcana DC 30: Identify a specific spell used to kill some peasants (e.g. Burning hands, magic missile, stinking cloud).

Creek
Core Clue: Grigs flit about the creek anxiously, like ants whose convoy line has been disrupted - they appear to have been stranded in the mortal world. A spellcaster senses traces of a ley line that has been drained.

• Nature/Perception DC 21: Along the creek are week-old tracks of the catoblepas. It moved at a steady pace upstream toward the Shiver Moors until suddenly it stopped then began running for 100' before its tracks abruptly vanish. Many trees are wilting or dead along the catoblepas' trail. If failed, PC accidentally steps in a catoblepas track filled with water and has vision of catoblepas: weakened (save ends), if failed weakened and blind (save ends), if failed reduced to -1 HP.

Faerie Clearing
Core Clue: Tracks of a group of 20 men that deliberately gathered here and didn't leave. A nearby dryad is dying (her tree was struck by lightning), and mistakes PCs for the druid Vathern; she reveals she had a vision of Wild Hunt and warned the druid that the Hunt would force him to make a difficult decision about the children.

• Arcana DC 30: A spellcaster finds trace amounts of strange chalk and recognizes it as ground blink dog bones - a vile component useful for teleportation rituals. If failed, mages' summoned elemental (summoned to destroy ritual circle) returns and attacks.
• Heal DC 30: Keep dryad alive long enough so she can describe party of mages coming into clearing with a levitating metal sphere, then casting a ritual and vanishing. If failed, dryad dies and PC is profoundly disturbed (role-play it).
• Extra Clue: If the players are totally off-base or lost, have a few Wild Hunt hounds killed obviously by magic spells here.

Fortified Chapel
Core Clue: Peasants sought refuge in the chapel and hastily fortified it. Broken stone walls and charred bodies are scattered everywhere, the low-lying windows are shattered, and the roof still smolders. Children's tracks go out the back into the woods.

• Perception DC 21: Crushed stained glass is scattered around the chapel's entrances, and a bag of at guano and sulfur is near side entrance. A spellcaster recognizes this as components for a fireball spell. If failed, the roof collapses as the PCs spend a long time searching: everyone in chapel; +18 vs. Reflex; 6d10 damage and restrained until dug out or escaping; miss half.

Soldiers' Camp
Core Clue: Lord Polding is the nearest noble to the village, and he sent a unit of soldiers to bury the dead. The soldiers have two pieces of information: (1) Lord Polding's enemy the Duke of Bechaeux has been negotiating with mages of Suleistarn, and (2) They suspect the Beast of Bechaeux was involved cause they saw wolves eating corpses (this is a RED HERRING that ties into another adventure).

• Sense Motive/Stealth DC 21: PC eavesdrops on soldiers, learning they were ordered to implicate the Beast of Bechaeux by skinning wolves and wrapping the pelts aound corpses. If failed, sneaky soldiers are alerted and invite PC(s) to have a friendly drink...but it's poisoned with concentrated ground thassil root: +18 vs. Fortitude; slowed (save ends), immobilized (save ends), unconscious.

Village Idiot in the Cistern
Core Clue: Uli, the village idiot, was out picking truffles when hounds of the Wild Hunt pursued him Fleeing, he fell thru boards into the village cistern. Down there he could hear the Druid Vathern say "Now children run to the riders!" Uli heard lightning and saw strange colors, heard weihon children being taken by the Wild Hunt.

• Athletics/Dungeoneering DC 21: Studying the cistern or diving underwater discovers a secret chamber inscribed with elven runes of moon cycles. A spellcaster realizes these track a ley line which runs from the Shiver Moors, thru Dunneebrook, and into the Loamwyrth.

Woods
Core Clue: Children's tracks from the chapel run into woods several hundred feet then abruptly vanish when hound tracks meet theirs. The corpse of a Druid lies slumped against a tree, apparently killed by a lightning bolt. A peryton (a deer-headed eagle monster with an elven shadow) feasts on the corpse's heart. Nearby, a frail human male arm - torn off at the elbow - is wedged in a bramble thicket. If the PCs haven't rescued Uli the village idiot yet he will cry out for help.

• Arcana DC 21: Examine the creature and recall it is a Peryton, a type of scavenger that follows the Wild Hunt and seems mystically bound to it. If failed, the peryton screeches and 4 perytons attack.
• History DC 21: Recognize wedding ring on torn arm as made from a type of impure green silver...particularly common in Suleistarn where arcane pollution taints much metallurgy. If failed, blood from arm falls on brambles and remnant Druidic magic courses thru the brambles, bringing them to life as an ambush vine.

pemerton said:

I have a PDF of Trail of Cthulhu but haven't read much of it, so my GUMSHOE-fu is a bit weak. But my understanding is that in GUMSHOE checks for secondary clues consume resources. The nearest analogue to that in 4e is the skill challenge - the failures are the player "resource" which, once expended, mean no more retries.

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That's a great realization! I'm just not sure that "before 3 failures" fits this model. The core clues are automatic and probably necessary to solve the mystery, so the skill challenge shouldn't end before the players get all those clues.

Quickleaf said:

I'm just not sure that "before 3 failures" fits this model. The core clues are automatic and probably necessary to solve the mystery, so the skill challenge shouldn't end before the players get all those clues.

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Yes, you're right they need the clues. But (on the limited resource model) they can't get more rolls in the challenge. I'm not sure of the best way to handle that at the table.

One option is to go metagame - "No more checks, guys." Another is to go ingame - narrate the situations such that, after they get the core clues, they don't have time to look for additional clues, or get bundled on by external forces to the next site.

I should try this at my own table one day to see how it can be made to work!

pemerton said:

Yes, you're right they need the clues. But (on the limited resource model) they can't get more rolls in the challenge. I'm not sure of the best way to handle that at the table.

One option is to go metagame - "No more checks, guys." Another is to go ingame - narrate the situations such that, after they get the core clues, they don't have time to look for additional clues, or get bundled on by external forces to the next site.

I should try this at my own table one day to see how it can be made to work!

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Ah, my preference with these things is to go in-game. I agree that time limits and narrative pressure are good...I just can't think of anything like that appropriate to this scene.

Say they fail 3 secondary clue checks - according to your take on adapting GUMSHOE this would prevent further secondary clue checks. So, let's say among the Charred Homes they fail to identify what magic killed the peasants. Then in the Fortified Chapel they fail to find the crushed stained glass and fireball components (AND the roof collapses). Following the children's tracks from the chapel, they enter the Woods where they fail to recognize the unique property of the torn arm's wedding ring (AND are attacked by ambush vine). Ok that's 3 failures. But why can't they make secondary clue checks in other areas now?

That's why I went with unique failure consequences in each area of the investigation.

I have done a fair bit of tweaking of skill challenges recently, and my inclination would be not to stick rigidly to "three strikes and out" but to look to the xp equation. What I mean here is, allow a check for every secondary clue, but assess penalties for failures equivalent to the xp for the challenge for every 3 failures. So, breaking it down in one possible way, every failure leads to an attack by creatures with an xp value equal to 1/3 the value of the skill challenge. More interestingly, perhaps, you can first generalise this to "every failure leads to consequences assessed at 1/3 the total xp value of the challenge", where "consequences" can mean anything from damage equivalent to 2-3 rounds (1-2 hits, say) from a challenge-level creature to traps and actual assailants, and then modify so that multiples of the 'penalty encounter aliquot' are reserved and trigger every 2-3 failures (so, a 2/3 xp penalty after 2 failures or a full xp penalty after 3). No xp are actually awarded for the 'penalty encounters' - they are just the 'price' for failure.

Your current scheme looks a little bit like this sort of system, but rigidly giving one penalty per failure, tied specifically to that location. Some of that might be fine, but it might get a bit samey/predictable. A bit of flexibility/structured variation might actually add interest. For example, the summoned air elemental (or whatever) might trigger after 2 failures in areas that don't have specific consequences tied to them, making it a potentially more nasty critter (while still "fair") and unpredictable in timing (as befits such a fast moving creature).

What about degrees of success? Simply doing/thinking of doing a particular check will reveal a core clue, but the result of the roll itself reveals secondary clues?

Balesir said:

Your current scheme looks a little bit like this sort of system, but rigidly giving one penalty per failure, tied specifically to that location. Some of that might be fine, but it might get a bit samey/predictable. A bit of flexibility/structured variation might actually add interest. For example, the summoned air elemental (or whatever) might trigger after 2 failures in areas that don't have specific consequences tied to them, making it a potentially more nasty critter (while still "fair") and unpredictable in timing (as befits such a fast moving creature).

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In-game logic is fairly important to me and my group. That's not to say we lean more to the sim side. We do not, we are mainly it it for the game. But having a coherency to the game and setting makes it more enjoyable for us.

That's why the air elemental might appear if the PCs go looking for clues where the teleportation circle was cast; originally the mages summoned the air elemental to erase evidence of the teleportation circle, but it being an elemental it just spun around and messed things up so that traces of scattered chalk still remain. If the elemental was triggered by failed checks in, say, the chapel and the cistern, it wouldn't make much sense in-game.

Viking Bastard said:

What about degrees of success? Simply doing/thinking of doing a particular check will reveal a core clue, but the result of the roll itself reveals secondary clues?

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I do use degrees of success loosely in all my D&D games, but no codified rules for it.

The way I've translated GUMSHOE is that "core clues" you can learn with any logical action (screw the skill system) that could learn the clue; I won't be withholding of these in the least, and they are very easy to acquire.

Skills come in completely independent of these "core clues" if a player want more information out of a particular area of investigation. Skill checks can access secondary clues, but there is some risk involved and often they can only be attempted once (e.g. you try to grab the burning scroll and fail - it burns up, you can't try again).