OOC - From the Outside

Binder Fred said:

Hey there Leif. Your goal with the soul-gem thing, is it because 1. Troll bribery/greed didn't feel like something Artur would fall for, or 2. You don't think your character would (initialy) be associated with "a bunch of lawless, hardened rogues"?

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Actually, neither of the above. I was just looking for a good hook to link Artur with the Witching Troll and create a reason for an upstanding cleric to be in his/its service. Artur won't take too kindly to the Witching Troll's manipulations, and will likely be on the lookout for revenge, sooner rather than later. But it's also true that being in the de facto service of the Witching Troll is making Artur "coarser" and perhaps somewhat "tainted," which causes him to pray a lot and try to cleanse himself of the taint. ["Out, damned spot!" -- Bill the Bard, Macbeth]

So, just to confirm:

1. none of the PCs have a history with Artur at the beginning (except maybe Khirynnax?).
3. the plan is to have Artur working against the other PCs (who will, most likely, be busy furthering the Witching Troll's agenda for their own selfish reasons) sooner rather than later.

Don't get me wrong, #2 might be very interresting to roleplay, but it also seems pretty likely to lead to potentially deadly PvP situations -- with Artur facing up to four-against-one odds if he doesn't play his cards just right...

If everyone's alright with that from the get-go, then I'm certainly game though.

doghead said:

Of note is the Hacoran Church, which believes in one god who created and rules over all things.

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Is this 'one god who created and rules over all things' include other gods or is the Hacoran Church monotheistic and moving in on the local religious scene? That is, is this a direct rework of the Norse gods vs. the White Christ or is the Hacoran Church a splinter sect rising up from within?

And where do Fae fit in the god / spirit / mortal hierarchy?

I recently finished reading 'The Broken Sword' by Poul Anderson which strongly draws from the Norse beliefs so I've been thinking about these very ideas lately. I've a lot I could say on the subject but it's late so I'm not going to.

Re: To Slay a Dragon. I think it all comes down to presentation, and I think doghead can get a strong enough sense of where we've been leaning to tailor it a bit more for us. I'm up for anything, really.

Binder Fred said:

So, just to confirm:

1. none of the PCs have a history with Artur at the beginning (except maybe Khirynnax?).
3. the plan is to have Artur working against the other PCs (who will, most likely, be busy furthering the Witching Troll's agenda for their own selfish reasons) sooner rather than later.

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I disagree. Artur has nothing against the other PCs, only the Witching Troll. He has more of an interest in converting them for his religion, but he will not be working against them. He may not actively participate with them in any scheme that offends his principles, but I'll try to keep that to a minimum.

Binder Fred said:

I don't know about this one, Doghead. The initial set-up of To Slay seems made for your usual party of do-gooder first level characters with a hankering to deliver messages and guard caravans. To be honest, the way they present it makes it all sound a little flat and un-exciting, at least to me... Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture though, so maybe if you went a bit more into how the richness of the Witching Troll/Monster Realm background we came up with will fit into all this?

(If you remember, I myself rather favored Knives in the Dark for our first adventure.)

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You are right about TSAD. Its a fairly conventional D&D adventure. That said, I bought a copy of Knives in the Dark. Its not that different from the first part of TSAD. Something is going on the, the PC's investigate. It could be slipped right into Part one of TSAD. What I like about TSAD is that there is a fairly strong Fae element, which is carried through the adventure.

Leif said:

I was just looking for a good hook to link Artur with the Witching Troll and create a reason for an upstanding cleric to be in his/its service. Artur won't take too kindly to the Witching Troll's manipulations, and will likely be on the lookout for revenge, sooner rather than later. But it's also true that being in the de facto service of the Witching Troll is making Artur "coarser" and perhaps somewhat "tainted," which causes him to pray a lot and try to cleanse himself of the taint. ["Out, damned spot!" -- Bill the Bard, Macbeth]

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What if we say Artur is looking for something, and the Witching Troll has intimated that she can help Artur find it? So one one level, Artur owes the Witching Troll for saving his life along with the others. But on another, Artur has reason to do more than just serve his debt and be done with it. Of course working with a Troll is galling. The Fae do not recognise the authority gods! But the Gods are themselves a diverse bunch, not adverse to bending the rules or taking an advantage that suits them.

I don't think that as a norse cleric, Artur needs to select one god. My sense of the Norse 'clerics' is that they were more like 'seers', interpreters of the gods intent, advisors as to how best get the blessings of the gods, and conductors of ceremonies. Artur could serve the gods generally. For his Domain, just choose something that appeals, modelled off a preferred or signature god.

GlassEye said:

That is, is this a direct rework of the Norse gods vs. the White Christ or is the Hacoran Church a splinter sect rising up from within?

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The former.

GlassEye said:

And where do Fae fit in the god / spirit / mortal hierarchy?

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They have their own realm, the Monster Kingdom. Which is Mihdard, but not the Mihdard humans know. Sometimes it is close, and the unwary can unknowingly walk between the two (as in BF's example).The Fae claim to have existed before the gods, and will still be there when the gods have gone. When the Fae die, they don't leave Mihdard, they return to the essence of the realm, which the Fae claim as the source of magic.

GlassEye said:

I recently finished reading 'The Broken Sword' by Poul Anderson which strongly draws from the Norse beliefs so I've been thinking about these very ideas lately. I've a lot I could say on the subject but it's late so I'm not going to.

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Grabbed myself a Kindle copy. Been ages since I read anything not work related.

thotd

I'm going to start with this. Its open enough to fit most of the ideas floated so far. It also leaves open the question of who was the villain, how and why the fighting started. It presumes all of the characters except Khirynnax* were travelling with Earl prior to meeting the Witching Troll and so know each other to some degree. But how well the characters know each other and to what extent they had shared purpose is undetermined.

* Although there is no reason Khirynnax cannot also be part of the Earls party initially. But I do like the idea of leaving his role in events somewhat unexplained.

There is no doubt that you would have died beneath the flashing knives, long spears and bloody axes of the men of Earl Tahnurson had it not been for the intervention of the Witching Troll. The last remnants of Earl Eogan's party, you escaped the slaughter of that night only to find yourself fleeing through the black forest hunted like animals by Tahnurson's hounds and men. Exhausted, wounded and out of ammunition and spells, it was only a matter of time before you were run to ground and killed.

The Witching Troll's offer was simple: a year and a day of service in return for the rest of your life. Exactly what happened next remains hard to recall. You remember clearly the touch of the night breeze, the feel of the cool moist soil and hard rocks under your feet, the revitalising water drawn from deep within the ground. The braying hounds and men with torches flowed straight past you, unseeing, without stopping.

Then it was morning. The Witching Troll was gone. Only Khirynnax remained, crouching beside a small fire on which he prepared a hot drink to start off the day with. Break-fast over, Khirynnax guides you back to civilisation.

A week later you receive the the Witching Troll's summons. A raven looks you square in the eye and craws three times. If there was any doubt, it is dispelled by the small white stone around the neck of the raven. It is the same as the stone that each of you received from the Witching Troll, only smaller. Following the raven, you arrive back at the clearing where once you first made the bargain with the Witching Troll.

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OK. We have characters sorted sort of. Close enough for government work. I think that the rest of the answers can be left until later. So lets sort out some Bonds. You each have to make at least one.

thotd

The Norse pantheon included giants (Loki) and elves (Njord, Frey, & Freya) so if something similar existed in this pantheon there would certainly be room for a cleric to work with the fae. Hacoran church priest less so, I imagine.

I like that block-text in your previous post, doghead. Works very well for me.

I'll get to some bonds a little later today.

Works for me, Doghead, if maybe with the following tweaks/additions?

1. Clearly, Slice, Brier and Trickle were hired mercs on Earl Eogan's punitive expedition against Earl Tahnurson's holdings.
2. I rather like the "Khirynnax rescuing us" version (it helps bond the party together, I think), so can my characters have that memory of it from that night? Since we're dealing with the Fae here, others can have completely different memories of it if they want.
3. Could we insert a frozen-time/simultaneous individual enticing/soul-geming dream-vision during that first night with the Witching Troll? Where he promises Slice power and Needles his kin? Then it would be perfect on my side of things.
4. Small tweak: no big thing but unless there's a physical reason for it, I'd just cut out the "one week" back and forth and set the start of the game the next morning, still in that clearing. Just so the characters specifically don't have time to reflect and find their (selfish) center again. Especially important if the bribing sessions above didn't occur (Else Slice and Brier WILL try to squelsh on the deal ).

Bonds below.

Leif, I'm not sure how Artur can at the same time oppose the Troll and not be working against four others that are doing their best to help that same Troll? It seems plain from Doghead's intro that the main trust of our adventures will be the other PCs actively working for the Witching Troll, helping him do what he wants done...

As others have intimated, I'm also not entirely sure why your PC necesseraly needs to be antagonistic towards the group's chosen patron? Certainly the Troll's tactics seem to be shady from what we've come up with for him so far, but who says he is evil? His aims might ultimately be neutral, or even potentially good-ish -- either outright or in an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way?

Anyways, I do still think some tweaks needs to be made to Artur's motivations if PvP is not your desired outcome (which it doesn't seem to be). See Doghead's suggestions, or, if you stick with the soul-gem idea, maybe have Artur remain under its influence for the forseeable future -- perhaps only fully coming out of it if/when he actually manages to get his hands on the thing?

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Slice's Bonds:

I owe Khirynnax my life, whether I admit it or not.
I won't let Trickle die, he is part of my pack now.
I worry about Needles' ability to survive in the dungeon though.
Needles has foolish hopes, but I will make him hard like me.


Needles Bonds:

Slice still hasn’t caught on to my shenanigans yet.
I owe Trickle a favor for pulling me out of that jam that time.
Next time I sneak off, I am therefore going to bring Trickle along.
Nothing quite kills the mood like Khirynnax’s presence though.


I'm also thinking of adding this to Brier's background:

Needles is young, but he grows fast. When Trickle and Slice fished him out of the outcast slums two years ago (and started using/training him for a particularly juicy climbing&infiltration gig), he looked like he was a scrawny ten (that's WHY they choose him; well that and his freaky-good climbing abilities). Now, almost two years later, he's got the lean and lanky physique of a fifteen/sixteen year old.

And who knows if or when the process will ever stop or slow down? Not him, that's for sure. For all he knows, in less than 10 years he could be dead of old age!


Does that work for you, [MENTION=40413]GlassEye[/MENTION]? The parts about Needles' "adoption", I mean.


EDIT= Do we get a rogue's gallery thread, Doghead?

I guess what I meant was not that Artur opposes the witching troll, per se, he just doesn't like her a great deal. But yet he owes her the same debt that the rest of the party does, or at least some of them do I suppose. And Artur will be working alongside the rest of the PCs, doing the bidding of the witching troll as payment of the debt he owes her as well, but he won't be too thrilled by the situation in which he finds himself. Just a good source of angst and RP tension. And it also provides for the possibility of some real character growth, in the event that Artur learns that the witching troll is not so bad after all, and he is able to become an ally of hers for real.

I'm thinking of Artur's patron deity being Heimdall, as he is presented in the Thor movies. Is this conceivable? I'm also open to having the entire pantheon be worshiped by Artur, but Heimdall has always held a place near and dear to my characters for as long as I can remember (but without the visual cues of the Thor movies, of course), even back to 1E AD&D days when he was routinely the patron of any paladin that I played.

PvP is total anathema to me -- I absolutely despise it, so no worries there, it just ain't gonna happen.

[Sorry if this post seems to contradict some of my earlier posts, but this is a developing situation, and my understanding of it continues to develop as well. Plus, as I so often do, I'm flying by the seat of my britches and making all this up as I go along.]

Binder: The adoption is fine but the aging bit is really cool.

Leif: Heimdall from the movies, huh? Interesting take and not necessarily the stuffy patron of paladins… I like the Opener of Gates aspect and strikes me as someone who could be mightily interested in how the Witching Troll (and other fae) manage the travel between the worlds.

Trickle’s Bonds
I stole something from Needles.
Slice has my back when something goes wrong.
Artur knows incriminating details about me.

Khirynnax’s Bonds
Trickle smells more like prey than a hunter.
The spirits spoke to me of a great danger that follows Slice.
I have showed Needles a secret rite of the land.
Artur has tasted my blood and I theirs. We are bound by it.