D&D 5E Bardic Lore: A Basic College of Lore Bard Guide

BiPolar · Jul 28, 2015

This thread has been amazing. I've built my Lore Bard up to level 5 and about to hit 6 soon. It's taken me a little time to figure out how to play him, especially in combat, but at level 5 he is a battlefield management master. Between his control spells like Fear, Heat Metal, Hypnotic Pattern, Faerie Fire and attack spells like whispers and thunderwave he as been able to shut down multiple enemies and still be able to attack.

I've made the decision to do a 2 level dip into warlock to get invocations and eldritch blast (and mage armor/armor of agathys) which will give me very good attacks when concentrating. I lose out on Fireball for 1-2 levels (depending on if i want warlock 2 or bard 6 first), but I think it's a good call to make to help support my combat abilities.

Our DM had a band of 4 cyclops roll up on us and we handled them without any problem whatsoever thanks to hypnotic pattern.

Xeethra · Aug 6, 2015

I'm wondering about how useful cutting words is early on in-game. At first glance it's neat, but it seems highly dependent on the DM.

Attack rolls: If the DM rolls in the open, it's amazing. If the DM rolls behind a screen and refuses to provide the bard with any info on the roll, it seems a lot less useful. Under such circumstances, a bard would be much, much more likely to waste cutting words on a critical hit roll (which will always hit) or a roll that would've missed anyway than use it successfully on a roll that just barely hits but then fails due to cutting words. I wouldn't bother using it for attack rolls unless that next hit will likely kill me—and even then, I'll expect the cutting words to rarely succeed under such circumstances.

Damage rolls: Again, if the DM rolls in the open, it's nice. If not, it's a lot less useful, especially with the early d6 die (average of 3.5hp). Rolling blind, cutting words might mean the difference between ending with 1hp or -2/3hp (yay!)... or 5hp or 1/2hp (meh—either way, you're one hit from death)... or -1hp or -4/5hp (bleh—either way, you're down). Again, I would probably only use this if I'm looking death in the face—but I can't if I already used cutting words on the attack roll and the attack still succeeded.

Ability checks: Great if the DM counts saving throws as ability checks. Less so if not. If the game is mostly combat, it becomes even less useful, especially if the DM doesn't allow it on initiative rolls.

It gets better with higher levels, when the die increases and you get more uses per day, but early on, I'm thinking that distributing bardic inspiration is more useful.

What are people's experiences with cutting words early on? How dependent do you think the DM's interpretation of the ability impacts its usefulness?

BiPolar · Aug 6, 2015

Xeethra said:
I'm wondering about how useful cutting words is early on in-game. At first glance it's neat, but it seems highly dependent on the DM.

Attack rolls: If the DM rolls in the open, it's amazing. If the DM rolls behind a screen and refuses to provide the bard with any info on the roll, it seems a lot less useful. Under such circumstances, a bard would be much, much more likely to waste cutting words on a critical hit roll (which will always hit) or a roll that would've missed anyway than use it successfully on a roll that just barely hits but then fails due to cutting words. I wouldn't bother using it for attack rolls unless that next hit will likely kill me—and even then, I'll expect the cutting words to rarely succeed under such circumstances.

Damage rolls: Again, if the DM rolls in the open, it's nice. If not, it's a lot less useful, especially with the early d6 die (average of 3.5hp). Rolling blind, cutting words might mean the difference between ending with 1hp or -2/3hp (yay!)... or 5hp or 1/2hp (meh—either way, you're one hit from death)... or -1hp or -4/5hp (bleh—either way, you're down). Again, I would probably only use this if I'm looking death in the face—but I can't if I already used cutting words on the attack roll and the attack still succeeded.

Ability checks: Great if the DM counts saving throws as ability checks. Less so if not. If the game is mostly combat, it becomes even less useful, especially if the DM doesn't allow it on initiative rolls.

It gets better with higher levels, when the die increases and you get more uses per day, but early on, I'm thinking that distributing bardic inspiration is more useful.

What are people's experiences with cutting words early on? How dependent do you think the DM's interpretation of the ability impacts its usefulness?

Cutting Words is highly useful in pretty much any level. The problem isn't the ability, your issue is your DM/a DM who won't roll in the open. If that is the case, you should ask your DM to either roll in the open or let you know if an attack roll has hit and your BI die will effect the outcome or if it's a miss and not necessary. It changes the mechanic slightly, but since they're hiding rolls then they need to provide some information. And avoiding a hit could be more important than getting hurt - hits mean concentration checks on spells you likely have going as a Bard.

At higher levels, you only get more die if your charisma goes up, but it'll cap at 5 (20 charisma).

Talk to your DM about how they'd like to handle hidden rolls and cutting words. If they refuse to budge to allow the mechanic to work, then I'd ask to switch classes. This is a major part of your role and if they don't allow you to use it by RAW/RAI, then they've severely hobbled the class.

FormerlyHemlock · Aug 6, 2015

Xeethra said:
I'm wondering about how useful cutting words is early on in-game. At first glance it's neat, but it seems highly dependent on the DM.

Attack rolls: If the DM rolls in the open, it's amazing. If the DM rolls behind a screen and refuses to provide the bard with any info on the roll, it seems a lot less useful. Under such circumstances, a bard would be much, much more likely to waste cutting words on a critical hit roll (which will always hit) or a roll that would've missed anyway than use it successfully on a roll that just barely hits but then fails due to cutting words. I wouldn't bother using it for attack rolls unless that next hit will likely kill me—and even then, I'll expect the cutting words to rarely succeed under such circumstances.

You could just predeclare with your DM: "it says I get to know the die roll, but you roll in secret, so just assume that I use Cutting Words on any roll between 10 and 16, okay? Here, I wrote it down on this index card for you to see at a glance." He should agree.

BiPolar · Aug 6, 2015

Hemlock said:
You could just predeclare with your DM: "it says I get to know the die roll, but you roll in secret, so just assume that I use Cutting Words on any roll between 10 and 16, okay? Here, I wrote it down on this index card for you to see at a glance." He should agree.

Love that idea - but rather than ALWAYS use it on a roll of 10-16 (or whatever range you provide), have the DM announce the option. Otherwise, you're gonna burn through those BI die.

Aimian_Silverflash · Aug 18, 2015

You could maybe tell your DM to stop being such a tool... I mean it's one of the core features of the class. It's hard to do as a DM with virtual tabletops, but there's absolutely no reason he can't make the roll and tell you the resulting unmodified roll before declaring a hit/miss, or whatever.

As a DM myself I normally side with them on these sort of things, but COME ON, the rules are black and white.

kimagure · Aug 20, 2015

Fantastic guide!

I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get the collective board's thoughts on:

1) Bard 20 strikes me as being rather weak. Even if it slows spell progression, what are your thoughts on multi classing into 1 level of rogue early on? You get sneak attacks, 2 skill expertise, an additional skill, and the ability to use thieves tools (if I remember right). Or would that be better for a valor bard, considering that sneak attack requires a weapon?

2) What do you think about taking counterspell for one of the cross-class spells? It's a third level spell that requires you to make an ability check with Cha (for bards). Given that Jack of All Trades has been confirmed to apply to all ability checks where you don't already add your proficiency bonus, that gives bards all but the best counterspell in the game. The same applies for dispel magic and even initiative (dex) checks.

3) Enhance ability lets you have advantage on cha ability checks. So, if you really wanted to screw over an enemy spell caster, couldn't you use enhance ability on yourself and then just counter/dispel their spells at cha bonus (+3 to +5) + JoAT (+1 to +3) with advantage? That's a Cha check at +4 to +8, which stacks up rather well against even 6th, 7th level spells and really not a bad use of 3rd level spell slots.

What do you think?

FormerlyHemlock · Aug 20, 2015

kimagure said:
Fantastic guide!

I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get the collective board's thoughts on:

1) Bard 20 strikes me as being rather weak. Even if it slows spell progression, what are your thoughts on multi classing into 1 level of rogue early on? You get sneak attacks, 2 skill expertise, an additional skill, and the ability to use thieves tools (if I remember right). Or would that be better for a valor bard, considering that sneak attack requires a weapon?

2) What do you think about taking counterspell for one of the cross-class spells? It's a third level spell that requires you to make an ability check with Cha (for bards). Given that Jack of All Trades has been confirmed to apply to all ability checks where you don't already add your proficiency bonus, that gives bards all but the best counterspell in the game. The same applies for dispel magic and even initiative (dex) checks.

Yes, high-level Lore Bards are the best Counterspellers in the game thanks to Jack of All Trades and Peerless skill. I'd take it as my level 10 or 14 secret, depending on party composition.

And yes, Enhance Ability is worthwhile against liches and archmages.

The main limitations of Counterspell are short range, 60' and visuals required, and the fact that it takes your reaction and can itself be Counterspelled. You need a pretty robust bard to be willing to get close enough to a dragon to Counterspell it, and even that won't work if the dragon is Greater Gnvisible.

kimagure · Aug 20, 2015

Hemlock said:
Yes, high-level Lore Bards are the best Counterspellers in the game thanks to Jack of All Trades and Peerless skill. I'd take it as my level 10 or 14 secret, depending on party composition.

And yes, Enhance Ability is worthwhile against liches and archmages.

The main limitations of Counterspell are short range, 60' and visuals required, and the fact that it takes your reaction and can itself be Counterspelled. You need a pretty robust bard to be willing to get close enough to a dragon to Counterspell it, and even that won't work if the dragon is Greater Gnvisible.

Thanks Hemlock! And yeah, 60' can get a bit dicey, but it depends on the game and the DM. Plus, you could always take see invisible at 2nd level--which might not be a bad choice if you're doing a lot of counterspelling.

RMcD · Sep 7, 2015

Are you planning on updating the main posts at all?

You've got none of the UE or EE, etc races there nor the spells?

D&D 5E Bardic Lore: A Basic College of Lore Bard Guide

BiPolar

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Xeethra

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BiPolar

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FormerlyHemlock

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BiPolar

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Aimian_Silverflash

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kimagure

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FormerlyHemlock

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kimagure

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RMcD

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