D&D 5E What makes a "full" spellcaster? [Warlock discussion]

CapnZapp said:

Also, don't play a TomeWarlock if you feel it is "boring" to go pew-pew with Eldritch Blast.

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Fixed that for you. There are other otpions than being an Eldritch Blaster.

Mephista said:

With Fiend, you get some awesome gish-benefits. Fey basically is giving you free spells to maniuplate the battlefield. Old One gives you new pets to have in battle. That has a big impact on play.

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I wouldn't go that far.

Fey gives you an area Charm or Frighten once per rest. But it only lasts a single round. You also get a Misty Step-ish once per rest, but it doesn't work unless you take damage(!). You get a better Charm at 10th level, but only when you yourself are targeted with a Charm. Dark Delirium might help you, but not the party. The main problem with the Charmed condition that it does nothing to prevent the monster from simply attacking another party member, so nothing here is big impact except out of combat.

Old One does grant you Create Thrall, but only at 14th level, only against humanoids, and only at one humanoid at a time. This is hardly "new pets in battle". Entropic Ward sounds fancy, but is essentially much like a superiority maneuver. The other abilities aren't worth mentioning. And once per rest sure ain't much.

Fiend is noticeably better. Against mooks, you are noticeably helped by getting temporary hp roughly equal to a whack (from a mook) as long as you manage to be the one downing them. Reistance to slashing (or whatever) is actually useful through many levels. Most importantly, these two abilities aren't restricted to just once per rest! But it gets better - both "once only" abilities are really good: a bard's Inspiration-like d10 is an excellent life-saver as well as an excellent "let me handle this important skill check" enabler. Hurl through hell is superior to the corresponding Fey ability, since it actually removes the BBEG completely for the full round - not just against you, but for everybody; not just some of its actions, but all of it; with no risk of accidentally cutting the duration short.

As a Warlock, you're still awfully fragile on the battlefield, so I'm not sure the role of gish suits you (don't mention the Bladelock), but you are basically right - the Fiend more than match any Tradition/School or Domain benefits.

JackOfAllTirades said:

They may be full casters, but obviously some casters are fuller than others.

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And in exchange for that lack of versatility, they get more damage and don't run out of spells as easily.

Same as a fighter. Least versatility, the most damage.

I'd like to see an official remedy for this from WOTC, but I'm not expecting it any time soon.

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We have enough "full" casters with clerics, druids, wizards, sorceres.
Let warlocks be different.

Mephista said:

Fixed that for you. There are other otpions than being an Eldritch Blaster.

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Why did you think I was talking about Tomelocks?

It applies equally well to Chainlocks.

And we aren't mentioning the poor Bladelocks.

JackOfAllTirades said:

Spell slots, access to level-appropriate spells, invocations, short rests per day, etc. aren't the only issues for a Warlock. They lack one important thing that other full casters take for granted: flexibility. Most full casters can choose what level of spell slot to use when casting; warlocks don't have this all-important option. For levels 1-5, all of their spells are cast at the highest possible level; they never have the option of using a lower level slot, even for spells that don't scale up with level. It gets worse for levels 6-9; they can't ever scale a spell up - an option freely available to all other full casters! In other words, Warlocks get the short end of the stick on both ends. They may be full casters, but obviously some casters are fuller than others.

I'd like to see an official remedy for this from WOTC, but I'm not expecting it any time soon.

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So don't treat them as a full caster, then...?

The warlock sure has some issues, but being an unfuller caster than Wizard etc is not one of them.

Some good replies here. The forums won't let me hand out as much XP for posts as are warranted.

I guess my issue is I'm really biased towards utility/control magic as a play style when being a caster, so I'm chafed by the limitations of the class. But that's obviously because of play-style preference rather than a design flaw.

Is the concern a lack of power? Because they get the more 'high level spells' relative to their level than any other class. Whether you're 5th level and casting 4 to 6 3rd level spells per long rest or 17th level and casting just as many 6, 7, 8, and 9 level spells as well as far more 5th level spells: You're bringing the power. Also, Rod of the Pact Keeper is one of the few items that adds to Spell DCs, so your spell DCs are amongst the highest in the game.

If the concern a lack of versatility? I don't see it. With invocations, pact abilities, and spells they have a lot they can do.

This seems to be a request for a solution that is in search of a problem.

If your spellcasting goes to ninth level spells, and you can cast a spell every round forever without feeling like you're doing something wrong, then that sounds like a full spellcaster to me.

If you have some other, more strict criteria, then the Warlock may or may not meet that.

Irda Ranger said:

Some good replies here. The forums won't let me hand out as much XP for posts as are warranted.

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Refresh the page. It resets the timer.

Irda Ranger said:

...
I guess my issue is I'm really biased towards utility/control magic as a play style when being a caster, so I'm chafed by the limitations of the class. But that's obviously because of play-style preference rather than a design flaw.

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Their spell and invocation options give them a lot of versatility. Especially at 15th level and above, the warlock often has far more options available to them than they have slots to use. My 17th level warlock has 5 or 6 conditional spells that rarely get used, but are great to have when you want them - and a half dozen spells that are bread and butter for him and get his slots most of the time. Those spells have variable uses - polymorph and banishment are offensive and defensive spells depending upon how you use them. Phantasmal Force creates super believable illusions in the mind of the target. Counterspell is always nice to have in the back pocket to stop a variety of spells. And as for things like unlimited silent image?

Warlocks are more versatile then you think.