D&D 5E Do the official WotC adventures cheat with xp?

First, do I feel cheated about adventure experience?

Nope, I almost never have a standard group, so most published adventure are always short on exp award. I always have to add monsters/encounters and other knick knack to adapt adventures to my groups. As long as the story is good, it will be played. If the story is bad, then it will stay on its shelf.

Second
As for the mile stones vs the experience award leveling.
Both methods are valid. I have a tendency to use the later but I have no problems using the first.

The exp budget is often a good way to judge if an encounter is good enough for your group. It helps to plan your adventures. If more exp are needed you can then add a good number of additional encounters. These should be prepared in advance and ready to play fast. For PotA, one group had made a foray into the stone temple. They went away to lick their wounds and rest. I send them a few hunting parties.

This reached two goals. First it made it clear to the players that the cults were not dummies waiting for them to get to them. Second it gave the player a sense of urgency to finish temples in one stroke. What I like to do in adventures such as PotA is to award experience for chained encounters. I set this to half of the amount that the previous encounter gave and it stops as soon as there is some form of rest.

For example. 4 encounters. The first one give 400xp, the second 350, the third gives 425 and the fourth gives 500. If the players chain them all it becomes: 400, 550, 700 and 850 xp. If they rest at any point in between, the bonus reset. This seems to work as a counter to the 5mwd as player will now want to chain the encounters as much as possible. They will thus manage resource, not going nova at the sligthest difficulty encountered and will make the game much more realistic. Resting is now a true choice and not only a simple mechanic in which you restore your powers at la computer/console games. The potential loss of exp can be detrimental and the players are aware of it. If you use this method, you'll see that most chapters in published adventures starts working as intended. You'll have almost no need for the mile stone system and additional encounters needed to compensate the missing experience is minimal.

The mile stone, I do use in some adventures. (CoS for example). There are good things going for it, but there are some bad things attached to it too.
The mile stone makes it easier for the players to focus on the story and it can be quite a fast train going. Get to the goal and leave. This leaves the exploration part a bit in the dust. We missed out on a few encounters? So what we'll level any way.

You could think that it encourages multiple encounters in a day, wrong! Players with the mile stone system will tend to get fast to the point and hope to go nova asap then rest, go nova again... rinse and repeat. With the mile stone, the DM must be dead serious to enforce the 6 encounter per day or short rest classes will get the "short" end of things. If the DM enforces the 6 encounters per day, the mile stone system is really good. But it makes up for a lot of work and a lot of improvisations.

As usual, the best system is what works best at your table.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tobold

Explorer
XP from random encounters are hard to predict because, well, they are random. :) In the case of PotA, after errata, the 4 starting keeps are actually quite close to each other, so I don't expect all that much xp from random encounters between them.

The side trecks would provide more xp, however I am having a hard time to integrate them in the campaign. Doing them "for xp" is very meta-gaming. If you follow the story of the group trying to prevent an elemental apocalypse it is hard to imagine them stopping somewhere to do something completely unrelated that seems much less important. However I feel that this story-driven approach is getting into the way even without sidetrecks: If they just follow the story, they would probably skip a number of the 13 dungeons. And then they are missing levels regardless of milestone or xp system.

I am actually wondering whether my best approach wouldn't be to simply double all monster xp during this adventure. Then, with a bit of random encounters and side trecks the group might just be at the right level at the right time. The "added xp for not resting" system is also very cool.
 
Last edited:

I did this for the 4 first dungeons in Princes of the Apocalypse:...
In short, using the milestone xp system in Princes of the Apocalypse speeds up leveling by a factor of 2 to 3. If WotC wants people to level twice as fast, why didn't they simply lower the values in the xp per level table by half? What sense does it make if published adventures level your characters twice as fast as RAW homebrew adventures? Is this a marketing trick to make published adventures more popular?
Thank you for doing this. But as [MENTION=6677110]Nali[/MENTION]en asks, what about the random encounters and side quests? Also, 5 is not the designed for party size, as far as I know, 4 is. So, if your numbers don't include random encounters and side quests, then it looks like they might be pretty darn close.

Why do you see a need for a competition between homebrew and published adventures? It's not a trick imo, because it's not something that affects if I purchase or not.

The question I feel we should be asking ourselves is rather "what is the purpose of still tracking individual xp?"

Just move over to milestone levelling (or in my case, the group levels every three sessions on average as I see fit).

It's so much easier and cleaner and faster.

XP is an illusion in 5th edition. ...

In 5E there simply is no need to keep using XP just to go through the motions. And I for one is glad the official modules don't even try to keep up the pretense.

Whether monster XP is 46% or 100% of what's "necessary" is a huge non-issue to me, and I sincerely hope you can take this post to truly examine your own stance on XP, and hopefully come to the realization that this whole "the modules are somehow bad because they don't care about making the XP totals match up" is not where you, IMHO, should direct your energies. :)

Sincerely and respectfully,
CapnZapp
Hmm, making me thing aren't you?
Well, XP is still needed as a guideline for new DMs. It is needed for groups that do not have a stable set of characters. It is needed as an emotional measure for those players who want to know how far or close they are to a level. It's needed in organized play.

Is it an illusion? Absolutely. The entire game is an illusion. But one that has meaningful constructs. XP is one of those. Note, meaningful does not mean required! Because, as you have pointed out, XP is not required to play the game in a meaningful manner.

... What I am not all right with is WotC making one set of rules for DMs that play RAW, and another sense of rules for people who spend extra money to buy published adventures.
Huh? They are not two sets of rules. XP is one set of rule that is intended to be used as guideline. Again, why the insistence on homebrew being in competition with WotC APs? They are different things. RAW even talks about using milestones. So PotA uses milestones while you choose to use XP for a homebrew. Both are acceptable ways to use the rules.

As somebody who is both DM and player, I do think that "objective and scientific" is a great feature for rules to have, especially for rules that the players very much care about. Fairness shouldn't be just an illusion.
But fairness is subjective. Is it fair that Karl the Hammer gets half as much XP from killing the troll that Melinda the Bright gets because Cindy was at the game session and Mike was not? At that table it is. At another? Who knows? And really, other than than for the players sitting around each table, it doesn't matter how any other table plays, only that "fairness" is agreed upon at one table by the people sitting around that table.

Remember, all the rules are recommendations for play,not requirements. D&D thrives as a game of imagination and creativity. It is not a game of Candy Land where their are no choices only random die rolls.
 

One other thing to add, from an adventure design perspective.

If I design an adventure with multiple stages and I provide more experience than required to level up to the next stage, then the PC's end up being over powered by the end. IMO, that's worse than being under powered, having to retreat and the DM then having to add content.

As a DM, I would much rather have the party under powered than over powered. It is a much easier situation to deal with.
 

Tobold

Explorer
Also, 5 is not the designed for party size, as far as I know, 4 is.

Interesting! Do you have a source for this information? I know designed party size was 5 in 4E, but haven't really seen anything in the 5E DMG about it, except for a bit on encounter difficulties that suggests that parties smaller than 4 or larger than 5 need adjustments.

Anyway, back to the point: I maybe expressed myself not very well regarding the "competition" between homebrew and published adventures. The thing is that my group, and presumably other groups as well, is likely to play both. The RAW translate into needing 15 medium difficulty encounters to gain a level from level 3 to 10. I'm not saying that this for some reason is the perfect pace, but I'm saying that a group that plays both homebrew content where they level up every 15 encounters and published adventures where they level up evry 5 to 7 encounters are going to notice the difference and wonder why. The obvious solution is to double xp in homebrew adventures, at which point I wonder why WotC hasn't done that in the first place. As I said, I don't say that one leveling pace is better or worse than the other, but why first make a rules system with one leveling pace, and then publish adventures with a radically different one?
 

DMG pg 261:
LEVEL ADVANCEMENT WITHOUT XP
You can do away with experience points entirely and
control the rate of character advancement. Advance
characters based on how many sessions they play, or
when they accomplish significant story goals in the
campaign. In either case, you tell the players when their
characters gain a level.
This method of level advancement can be particularly
helpful if your campaign doesn't include much
combat, or includes so much combat that tracking XP
becomes tiresome.

Milestone advancement is RAW.

I just don't have a problem with a written adventure advancing character levels faster than another adventure does. Since you do, either add content to the faster adventure or speed up the slower one. You choice.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Anyway, back to the point: I maybe expressed myself not very well regarding the "competition" between homebrew and published adventures. The thing is that my group, and presumably other groups as well, is likely to play both. The RAW translate into needing 15 medium difficulty encounters to gain a level from level 3 to 10. I'm not saying that this for some reason is the perfect pace, but I'm saying that a group that plays both homebrew content where they level up every 15 encounters and published adventures where they level up evry 5 to 7 encounters are going to notice the difference and wonder why. The obvious solution is to double xp in homebrew adventures, at which point I wonder why WotC hasn't done that in the first place. As I said, I don't say that one leveling pace is better or worse than the other, but why first make a rules system with one leveling pace, and then publish adventures with a radically different one?

They might notice, but they won't care.
 

MrHotter

First Post
I did this for the 4 first dungeons in Princes of the Apocalypse:

Feathergale Spire: Supposed to get you from level 3 to 4, which would require 1800 xp per character. Actually, gives 4175 xp for monsters. For a group of 5 players thatis only 46% of the xp needed.

Rivergard Keep: Supposed to get you from level 4 to 5, which would require 3800 xp per character. Actually, gives 7900 xp for monsters. For a group of 5 players thatis only 42% of the xp needed.

Sacred Stone Monastery: Supposed to get you from level 4 to 5, which would require 7500 xp per character. Actually gives 13300 xp for monsters. For a group of 5 players thatis only 35% of the xp needed.

Scarlet Moon Hall: Supposed to get you from level 4 to 5, which would require 9000 xp per character. Actually, gives 21700 xp for monsters (including all the neutrals you probably shouldn't kill). For a group of 5 players thatis only 48% of the xp needed.

In short, using the milestone xp system in Princes of the Apocalypse speeds up leveling by a factor of 2 to 3. If WotC wants people to level twice as fast, why didn't they simply lower the values in the xp per level table by half? What sense does it make if published adventures level your characters twice as fast as RAW homebrew adventures? Is this a marketing trick to make published adventures more popular?

EDITED: My math was off

I just took a look at Feathergale Spire and if you calculate based on 4 characters (standard for their calculations) in a level 3 party then you get 1,231 xps (per character) in the tower if you hunt the manticore with them and then end up fighting everything in the tower. That's about 570 xps off if the characters had entered the tower at exactly level 3, but there were more chances for combat xps at level 3.

If you add in random encounters while traveling, and the set encounters, you would have much more xps. Add in the 'New Management' side treck for level 3 characters (from chapter 6), then you get even more. Of course, you could also be allowing xps for quests and defeating traps that could add more as well.

I think the difficulty in trying to 'math it out' is why many DMs prefer to use the milestone method. The milestone method is not an optional rule either. If you go to the DMG chapter 9, it's just one of the possible ways you can grant levels in your campaign.
 
Last edited:

...
You should probably use the Kobold Fight Club encounter generator to help generate the xps to help figure out the adjusted xps based on group size. The encounter multiplyer based on number of monsters in the encounter can make the xp total go up fast. ...
The XP multiplier is NOT for figuring out how much XP to award. It is for figuring out the XP allocation for encounter balancing and creation.
 


Remove ads

Top