[FFD20] Let's Mass our Forces, and Rebuild our Power

GnomeWorks · Aug 4, 2003

Sollir Furryfoot said:
If it hasn't already been stated, I really would suggest a Magic Points system for this game, in Final Fantasy tradition and it makes multiclassing in mage-type classes/PrCs easier.

I agree with Sollir... like I mentioned before, there are certain things that make an FF an FF, and MPs are one of these things. I don't think it would be too difficult to make this work, either... after all, psionics uses a point system and works fine (well, the point system, anyway... but a discussion of psionics isn't what this thread's about, so I won't go any further.

)

I also would suggest for 2 versions of each class, minus the Apprentice/Chemist. Have one version a Core Class (20 level) and another Version a PrC (10 level), both having mainly the same abilities but the PrC perhaps toned down a bit and more scrunched together. Since different FF generes use different class groupings, this system could make them more easy to emulate.

I agree whole-heartedly with Sollir, again. Having two versions of classes would make attaining the flavor of a specific FF (if you're going for that) a little easier... in addition, it would give DMs a little more control over their setting and how they want to handle classes. IMO, it wouldn't be too much more difficult to do this than it would to just do one or the other, either.

And summoners! I can't stress enough how important they are. IMO, a small list of summonable mosnters won't do... there should be several dozen, at least, if not in the three digits. The rules for summoning them should be expanded beyond the summon monster spells - not along the lines of VIII's GFs, but something slightly more complex and special.

drothgery · Aug 4, 2003

GnomeWorks said:
I agree with Sollir... like I mentioned before, there are certain things that make an FF an FF, and MPs are one of these things. I don't think it would be too difficult to make this work, either... after all, psionics uses a point system and works fine (well, the point system, anyway... but a discussion of psionics isn't what this thread's about, so I won't go any further. )

... and that's why I used a psionics-based point system for my mages. I started a Caller last night; should finish this week.

GnomeWorks said:
And summoners! I can't stress enough how important they are. IMO, a small list of summonable mosnters won't do... there should be several dozen, at least, if not in the three digits. The rules for summoning them should be expanded beyond the summon monster spells - not along the lines of VIII's GFs, but something slightly more complex and special.

Actually, the main problem I'm having with a caller is putting together at least 3 summons at each level from 0-9, and that's after going through gamefaqs.com to get every one from IV, V, IX, and tactics. I may have to make some up.

The idea I'm working off is that the 'Name' summons act like they do in every FF except X; they're around for a single action and then go away, and then I added the D&D Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells to their spell list.

Creamsteak · Aug 5, 2003

Jeff_M_Stone
Magic will probably be dealt with in a manner similar to DnD 3e and FF1, but other methods and such will be incorporated at times. I think a Geomancer will work, and has worked on different levels before. It is a similar concept to a Druid, but the two are not one in the same. I think that the Red Mage is a point of argument that might require me to have not only paths, but possibly a variant class version. Average saves exist, but I'm not sure if we want to use them (it's not beyond reason, but I'm trying to stay as consistent with core material as I reasonably can.)

GnomeWorks
Glad to have you around GW. First off, I agree about having to integrate a number of FF elements into the final work… but we are not going to fret about that until we have room for the trivialities. However, currently Kamikaze Midget's website has tons of info on similar stuff that he's worked out, and I welcome you to work on anything that you feel the urge to write up. Play-test it as something at least once if you can fit in into something reasonable, that'll help. As far as the Summoner goes, if I have my way it'll be absolutely awesome. My goal is to give it incredible versatility as a class. First off, it should have the ability to summon DnD style, and it should be able to summon named monsters. Secondly, I'd like to see '1 round summons) that act like normal summons (but are very powerful creatures) but they only come into play for one round, so they can unleash a devastating attack or even do amazing things like raise a dead party member in one round. Of course, it's going to be tricky to pull that off within normal reasoning, and of course balance is important. I'm really excited about how such a class would end up being developed… and of course I want to get a lot out of it. The Blue Mage is tough, no questions asked, but I still think it's doable in a method not all too different from Sollir's idea. I only feel his is still too arbitrary to be the polished product, but it has the basic conceptualization of the idea. I'm still tossing around ideas of MP in my head… it'll be there, but how to do it is still ponderful. I don't think Psionics system is entirely accurate, however, for the scope of things.

Drake Masters
Great. You're pretty wise about this stuff, so if you get a chance to test something before running a version by, that's good. Also, if you type anything up, put it in manuscript form (single spaced, block paragraphing, double space between paragraphs) and ignore layout. You can do a layout version if you want, but if what you create is good enough for the PDF version, then I'll want it in Manuscript form for the purpose of doing layout with the other classes. And yes, some of these people ignore me, but I think we generally are listening. Some of you might not be too used to using a forum instead of another medium to communicate online, it does take some warming up to. I think it's the best medium however, since it's more public than emails, better formatted and written than chat rooms, and is up 24 hours a day.

Drothgery
Your list of spells is VERY similar to a previous incarnation I discussed with Sollir. One thing I've been considering is that I'd like a Black Mage, for instance, to be able to strike with Fire 1 spells every round and be able to dish out damage somewhat close to a fighter of equal levels… I'd like it to be scalar enough to where the Mage has low-level abilities to use as the bread of the class, but I'd also like all classes to be able to perform some form of abilities that are on equal level with the eventual magic available to characters. Hell, I've almost considered developing classes as 25 level classes to justify the Ffness of some desired abilities. I havn't studied over the above links just yet, but I most certainly will. Once again I'll say, Red Mage is a point of a lot of different opinions. I want to make my final PDF something that everyone will find some way to use within the guidelines of their own perception. Ninjas should be spellcasters, if they so choose. I do think that Edges abilities are only a start… though I do see all ninja style magic (not the lower level ones that are more similar to a trick) should be taken as an option, probably not available till mid-high levels. I don't think FF9 is too fantastic at classifying characters how I would like to see them handled, but a caster dragoon should have some options… I'd like to have some kind of options, maybe not till higher levels though… Your summoner is similar to my conceptualization, but it's not everything I imagine. It's one of those things I'm just going to take my time to really examine…

Psychotic Jim
Well, I don't want to do what the actual Final Fantasy series started doing in 6, and really did in 7, which is go classless. There's something I love about classed games, and although I want variety and change, and tons of unique options… I don't want to arbitrate things down to a D20 modern style class system or such. Theres a point of balance in between I'm looking for. What I'm looking for is a quasi-romantic blend of the D20 modern 'paths' system and the DnD classes system, without making the game unplayable in one or the other system. Tricky, I think… but it's what I see as the best possible implementation of an FFD20 game. If you want hardcore Final Fantasy, the returners Hideout does that well… and if you want something like the Final Fantasy 7/8/10 style systems (relatively classless, though you might have your 'tough heroes' and 'fast heroes'), D20 modern is REALLY close for that. Just fix up your favorite sub mechanics like Materia and roll it into one system… but my goal is different, and although possibly pragmatic, it should make sense as I start to really delve into the concept. The DnD spell lists are just lists of spells for us to steal really, not lists we plan on copying in any form. I certainly plan on something similar to the sorcerer, or psion depending on how you put it… and I've seen some good ideas so far.

DimTye
Welcome. The disorganization is something that's going to follow a natural path. Some people can see through it, or around it. I'd love your help if you like the idea and feel confident in your ability to write gaming stuff. Just remember, criticize and scrutinize yourself and everyone else. I'll look into your feats as soon as my comp stops crashing. Red Mage, as I said is a point of a lot of debate… and I don't think any ideas are lost unless they are completely forgotten. I'm listening, but my brain is only beginning to process exact numbers. The goal is to see if a community can provide motivation where I have failed twice to finish my goal here, of writing up an adequate Final Fantasy D20 system…

Sollir Furryfoot
Hi Sollir. Do I even need to say hi, we do encounter each other constantly anyway… all I can really say to you is in general I agree or at least see your opinion, but I'm not looking at your mechanics just yet. Once I hit a level of confidence in where to start, I'll probably churn out 10 pages a day for 4 days (deleting 2 or more pages from previous days) until I hit a roadblock. At that point, I'll have enough documentation to provide a real solid ground to start debating issues one at a time.

Pengin
Your comment about summons is interesting in some sense. What I'd like to see for Carbunkle, just for instance, is you summon him (he appears at the beginning of your next round and has 1 round to act, maybe 2 or more in Carbunkles). Carbunkle then would act out whatever purpose it was summoned for within it's own special abilities, for instance creating a ward against magic on a person, or around an area or such. Another interpretation I'm considering would be for Carbunkle to reflect magic attacks within a large area for individuals it's Summoner chooses to protect, for the number of Rounds Carbunkle itself is around. That individual detail will be dealt with later, but that's the idea I had in mind for it. Shiva, like you said, would be summoned (coming into play at the beginning of the summoners round) and then be told to 'cast your hail of ice' (etc.) on Barthus… then the summon itself would use a supernatural ability or spell-like to follow the command. As far as Blue Mages go, the more I think about it… they probably develop some abilities themselves from knowledge of monsters. That, in turn with the ability to learn certain abilities used against them would work well. Also, they will probably have limited spells known, but it would be perfectly legitimate for them to gain an ability they encountered in the past on the advancement of a level instead of being frustrated because their allotment was filled when they encountered the creature with access to whatever Blue Magic. Also, the FF4 Mechanic (I don't remember it, but it makes sense) might be easily Integra table… Your opinion about dice is definitely noted… I forgot all about how cool of an idea it is to integrate the dice more often. Especially the poor d12. I don't want D20's for damage though… they don't feel right that way. I don't want to use DnD spells, but I do think providing some spell conversion guidelines helps (like what spells really would be available to a blackmage, and at what level, for how much mp)… If we have a good crew of willing designers, we could have a full list of spells and no need for traditional DnD ones (except those we re-named for fun). I'm going to try and see where feats end up… it'll be tough no doubt.

GnomeWorks · Aug 5, 2003

Thanks for the welcome, cs. I wasn't entirely certain as to how involved I was going to get myself in this project, but it would appear that I'm getting deeper and deeper...

Last night, I was considering the blue mage. I sat and tried to emulate what Sollir had done, but was failing... so instead, I made blue spells that originated with monster abilities, but were slightly different.

For instance, aero originated with the yrthak's sonic lance ability. It wasn't the exact same ability, but it was the same, conceptually. I think that it would be possible to make a large list of blue spells, all with listings of what monster abilities they are learned from. In this way, it would be possible to retain the classic blue spells of FF (White Wind, Blowfish, etc...), while being usable in either a FF d20 game or in a "standard" d20 game.

drothgery · Aug 5, 2003

creamsteak said:
Drothgery
Your list of spells is VERY similar to a previous incarnation I discussed with Sollir.

That's kind of hard to avoid. The FF spells from the games aren't going to change, the d20 guidelines for how much damage spells should do per level are known, and I think most who are familiar with the FF games will end up with similar lists when looking at the D&D spell list and figure which spells are appropriate.

The only thing I did that was a little bit "out there" was adding Storm of Vengeance to the Black spell list at level 9. But there's not a canonical FF extremely high-powered Water or Lightning spell.

creamsteak said:
Once again I'll say, Red Mage is a point of a lot of different opinions. I want to make my final PDF something that everyone will find some way to use within the guidelines of their own perception.

It wouldn't be hard to add some combat feats to my Red Mage's bonus feat list, though I'd be against giving them medium armor for the same reason that the 3.5 ranger doesn't have it; if they can't use their primary ability (spellcasting) in medium armor, then they're not going to wear medium armor anyway. And I think the only heavily armored FF spellcasters are Paladins (and FFIX dragoons).

creamsteak said:
Ninjas should be spellcasters, if they so choose. I do think that Edges abilities are only a start… though I do see all ninja style magic (not the lower level ones that are more similar to a trick) should be taken as an option, probably not available till mid-high levels. I don't think FF9 is too fantastic at classifying characters how I would like to see them handled, but a caster dragoon should have some options…

Hmm...

Maybe Ninja Sorcerer and Dragoon Sorcerer PrCs? So Edge is martial-artist base class/Ninja Sorcerer, and Freya is knight/dragoon/dragoon sorcerer (or just a dragoon/dragoon sorcerer, depending on whether dragoon is a base class or a PrC)? If we're going to have spellcasting and non-spellcasting paths for both, they almost have to be done as separate classes; balancing spells and other special abilities gets very difficult quickly.

GnomeWorks · Aug 5, 2003

Blue Spells

I have compiled all the blue spells from all the FF's with blue magic (V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, and X) and made a .txt file out of them. Each spell is listed, with a variety of information, depending upon what I could find. MP values are listed for some of the spells. I also included a short note on how the blue spells are learned for each game (for the ones that I know).

The spells are listed in (somewhat) alphabetical order by game. Some parts of the list are more sorted than others.

Edit - I found the list of blue spells for FFTA. Though I'm not sure exactly what they do, there are one-liners for them... also, most are relatively similar to previous blue spells, and there are a few traditional blue spells in the list, though there are some that are new or do some different things. I added the list to the original file, and replaced the one I put here as an attachment with the extended one; the FFTA list is at the end of the file.

Drake Masters · Aug 5, 2003

RE: Blue Magic

Good list, but where's "Big Guard", quite possibly the best E. Skill from FF7?

Drake Masters · Aug 5, 2003

Blue Magic

Something my friend and I came up with was that the blue mage could instead learn any "Spell Like" ability that a creature or character knows, and could only use each once a day, unless he took the time to learn it again, then he could use it twice a day, and so on. What do you think GW?

DimTye · Aug 6, 2003

Right!

Taking the advice of the lot of you, I've done some tinkering:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte750u/FFD20/Core_Feats.html

The Red Mage has had his skillset reduced to that similar to a Mage, has had his saves increased, and has had a few martial additions that (as I now see, thanks to my peers) better reflect the spirit of the Red Mage.

I've kept the magic cap at level 5, but that's just an arbitrary value. I'm still not sure how magic will work in this system, so it's totally open to change.

As for Organization...are we interested in any?

GnomeWorks · Aug 6, 2003

Re: RE: Blue Magic

Drake Masters said:
Good list, but where's "Big Guard", quite possibly the best E. Skill from FF7?

Might've been renamed Mighty Guard. I know that particular blue spell is on the V and TA lists, and its one of the traditional ones that are almost in every FF that has blue magic.

Originally posted by Drake Masters
Something my friend and I came up with was that the blue mage could instead learn any "Spell Like" ability that a creature or character knows, and could only use each once a day, unless he took the time to learn it again, then he could use it twice a day, and so on. What do you think GW?

Hmm. An interesting idea. Sollir was doing something along the same vein. Personally, what I've started looking at doing is finding equivalencies between blue spells and monster abilities, and saying that being attacked by a certain monster ability gives you its equivalent blue spell.

Example: A blue mage is attacked by an air elemental's whirlwind attack. The blue mage may now have an opportunity to learn the blue spell aero.

I don't know how I would handle how many times they can use an ability per day, nor what to do if they get hit with an ability multiple times. With spells like aero, which had three strengths in V, getting hit with stronger versions of the ability that gives it out would grant the blue mage stronger versions of the blue spell learned from it. However, with spells like mighty guard or white wind, that is slightly more difficult and doesn't really fit the flavor. Once you learn a blue spell, you've learned the blue spell. Also, basing how many times you can cast a given blue spell based on how many times you've been hit with it isn't a very good idea, as that's quite a bit of book-keeping.