D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

Greenstone.Walker · Mar 22, 2018

How I plan to solve the problem.

First, I removed rapier from my games. It seems out-of-place to me. It is a post-renaissance weapon, for an age when gunpowder has made heavy armour rare.

Second: I redid the racial weapon training a bit. Elves are masters of blade and bow. They have proficiency in short sword, long sword, short bow, and long bow.

As an aside, finesse weapons are small and light and capable of being manoeuvred carefully by wrist action to strike precisely at very small targets. In other words, not longswords. Additionally, "finesse" is the opposite of "blunt weapon", so there are no finesse clubs.

snickersnax · Mar 22, 2018

jaelis said:
I disagree that (1) should be considered an improvised weapon. If the object resembles a real weapon enough, then it "can be treated as such." If that is the case then you should treat it so consistently, for proficiency, damage, fighting styles, whether TB works, and anything else.

The rule says " For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus." You are treating the table leg as a club, not as an improvised weapon here.

From the sentence prior to your rules quote: "In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such."

I'm not sure how this means that it stops being an improvised weapon. I read this to be a both/and, not an either/or.

jaelis · Mar 22, 2018

snickersnax said:
I read this to be a both/and, not an either/or.

Surely you wouldn’t play that TB grants proficiency with all weapons? That would seem to follow by the same reasoning.

FlyingChihuahua · Mar 22, 2018

The answer is simple really.

Stop caring so much about optimization.

snickersnax · Mar 22, 2018

jaelis said:
Surely you wouldn’t play that TB grants proficiency with all weapons? That would seem to follow by the same reasoning.

I concede that would be a logical and problematic conclusion. Well done Sir.

UngeheuerLich · Mar 22, 2018

My take: longswords are now bastard swoards or broadswords. Longswords are now 1d8 finesse slashing.

Bardbarian · Mar 22, 2018

There is nothing wrong with the Longsword. This entire thread is based on the dex is better than str fallacy in 5e. Str is as good or better a stat based on playstyle and magic availability in a campaign. The longsword allows a str character to pick from slashing or piercing weapons, while a dex character is limited to piercing only. This is a minor effect but it is there none the less. It really comes down to whether ot not the character is active or passive. Active stats like str mold the battle rearranging the enemy through shoves and moving objects to gain advantage. Passive stats like dex react to the surroundings quickly and enable the player to counterattack. When you dive deep into the options available in the rules, it becomes harder and harder to consider dex based characters at an advantage. While no two options are entirely equal the longsword and rapier both serve a purpose in the games structure and give the player an option to select their flavor of play. In other words, vanilla is not broken if you like chocolate.

Yaarel · Mar 23, 2018

Thought experiment.

Bladelength
• (0'+) dagger: 1d4 pierce (light, finesse, throwing)
• (1'+) shortsword: 1d6 pierce (light, finesse)
• (2'+) sword: 1d8 pierce or slash (finesse)
• (3'+) longsword: 1d10 slash (versatile 2d6)
• (4'+) greatsword: 2d6 slash (two-handed, heavy, reach)

Also
• (2'+) scimitar: 1d6 slash (light, finesse)
• (2'+) katana: 1d8 slash (versatile 1d10, finesse)
• (3'+) rapier: 1d8 pierce (finesse)

Essentially, versatile boosts to the next highest damage, and greatsword being more like a polearm benefits from reach.

Ancalagon · Mar 23, 2018

Cap'n Kobold said:
I believe that BookBarbarian was referring to the Versatile property of weapons not being used because they are already strong as single-handed but weak as two-handed because they lose the use of a shield, but don't compare well to dedicated two-handed weapons.

I completely agree. In D&D, if you are going to fight with a 2 handed weapon, a 2-handed sword (historically a claymore or a zweihander) is much better than a longsword (finally, in 5e the long sword is equivalent to the historical weapon). HOWEVER in real life a long sword is a better weapon 90% of the time - you may not be able to cleave someone in half but it's much, much faster and better defensively too. This bothers me.

5e definition of a longsword already covers the arming sword, falchion, dao, many sabres, bastard sword, macahuitl, 'Viking sword' etc.
Some examples are optimised towards two-handed use, and some are built for mostly one-handed use, but 5e isn't really granular enough to pick out that level of distinction.

There I disagree on many of those (esp arming sword, falchion, viking sword). The sword handle was short (esp a viking sword) and there is no room for a second hand, baring half-swording (a maneuver that wasn't done on either viking sword or falchion anyway). If I was to stat such a weapon (and I did in my game, the tulwar) I would give them 1d8 damage, strength, slashing, non versatile.

The 'arming sword' isn't heavy, but it still has appreciable weight, and requires strength of both shoulder and forearm to use with speed and control. It was also used two-handed fairly regularly in halfsword techniques when a bit of extra oomph was required and a shield wasn't used. - To me, that puts it squarely in '5e Longsword' territory.

This really depends on blade geometry (and now we *really* are going too detailed for 5e). Half swording was used with stiff blades with as strong point to deliver a precise and strong piercing blow. If you have a blade geometry more optimized for slashing (say, Oakeshott type XIII) then you won't do that. I do agree with you that it's not really a finesse weapon

I'd suggest almost the exact opposite: a punch is about the least Finesse (in 5e D&D terms at least) weapon around. Its effect is almost entirely dependent upon the pure force it delivers, even when it strikes the few well-guarded areas on the body that are more vulnerable.

agree again

Ancalagon · Mar 23, 2018

werecorpse said:
Rename the d8/d10 versatile slashing sword (currently misnamed longsword) to the broadsword.

Make the longsword a d8 slashing finesse weapon.

.... misnamed *why*? Finally in 5e the word longsword is used for a weapon which matches the historical weapon.

D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

Greenstone.Walker

Adventurer

snickersnax

Explorer

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?

FlyingChihuahua

Hero

snickersnax

Explorer

UngeheuerLich

Legend

Bardbarian

First Post

Yaarel

He Mage

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

Similar Threads