D&D 5E Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip

I'm trying to plan out a lore bard who emphasizes debuffs and control, with the occasional healing word for emergencies (basically only to bring up an ally from unconscious) and stays out of melee when possible. There is a life cleric and a wizard in the party, so healing and ritual/utility spells aren't a super high priority (the last member is a monk).

I've gone with a pretty typical bard build to start: half-elf with an 8,16,15,8,12,16 stat spread after racials, with a plan to get Resilient CON in either the second or third ASI/Feat opportunity (pumping CHA being the other two of the first three, then probably Lucky and Alert).

The two biggest things that concern me about going straight lore bard are (1) durability, and (2) having useful actions while concentrating, particularly at the middle-levels (still need to conserve spell slots, but vicious mockery is starting to lose its luster against multi-attack enemies).

To Dip, or Not? If so, What Class?

I know that a two-level Hexblade dip is the standard solution to this, but I hesitate to delay spell progression that much (although the short-rest renewal of a couple first level slots is appealing). A cleric level doesn't do much for action-while-concentrating (casting offensive spells with wisdom seems silly), and would require sacrificing something to pump wisdom.

What I keep coming back to, therefore, is a single level of Divine Soul (Chaotic) Sorcerer (probably at Level 7), which gives several goodies:

• Access to shield, freeing up a bard slot to take something other than bane, and either another defensive reaction like absorb elements or freeing up a second bard slot by taking healing word as a sorcerer spell.
• The Favored by the Gods ability, which seems really strong (I'll hardly ever make an important attack roll, but boosting a failed saving throw once per short rest? Yes please!), and makes maxing CHA before taking Resilient CON seem more comfortable.
• Keeping up spell slot progression (compared to Hexblade, though no short rest renewal)

I think either Hexblade or Divine Soul would work, RP-wise. Hexblade gives better passive defense, the best single offensive cantrip, and more 1st level spell use. Divine soul gives more higher level spell use, more useful spells known, cantrip versatility, and a great class ability.

Spells, Spells, Spells

Here's what I'm thinking spell selection-wise if I go Divine Soul. The idea is to focus mainly on imposing penalties on enemies' rolls, diversified by save type and targeting mechanism, to squeeze as much out of the action economy as possible (hence Spiritual Weapon at level 6, even though it's a straight damage spell and so doesn't fit that well with the theme), and otherwise use magical secrets to do things that others in the party couldn't do or couldn't do as well (hence Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Circle of Power).

Spells by function, level and save type

Sorcerer Spell
Magical Secrets
Concentration
AoE = Area of Effect
Tgt = Can select multiple targets

Single Target Debuff/Control/Damage:

L0: Vicious Mockery (WIS), Frostbite (CON), Sacred Flame (DEX), Ray of Frost (Attack)
L1: Dissonant Whispers (WIS)
L2: Suggestion (WIS), Blindness/Deafness (CON)
L3: Enemies Abound (INT)
L4: Banishment (CHA)
L5:
L6:
L7: Plane Shift (CHA)
L8: Power Word Stun (CON)

AoE and Multi-Target Debuff/Control/Damage:
L0:
L1: Bane (CHA, Tgt), Faerie Fire (DEX, AoE)
L2:
L3: Hypnotic Pattern (WIS, AoE)
L4:
L5: Synaptic Static (INT, AoE)
L6: Mass Suggestion (WIS, Tgt), Sunbeam (CON, AoE), Bones of the Earth (DEX, Tgt)
L7: Forcecage (~CHA)
L8:
L9: Psychic Scream (INT, Tgt)

Other (Buff/Summon/Utility):
L0: Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Guidance, Prestidigitation
L1: Healing Word, Shield
L2: Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon
L3: Dispel Magic, Counterspell
L4: Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
L5: Animate Objects, Circle of Power
L6:
L7:
L8:
L9: Wish


If I go Hexblade instead, sub in Eldritch Blast and maybe Armor of Agathys, remove Ray of Frost, Guidance and Sacred Flame, keep Bane and Healing Word as Bard spells and remove ... something... maybe regular Invisibility once I get Greater Invisibility, and Suggestion once I get Mass Suggestion.

Action Economy

A typical sequence of combat turns would likely be:

Round 1:
Action: Cast an appropriate concentration buff/debuff or Animate Objects
Bonus Action: Regular Bardic Inspiration or direct animated objects


Round 2:
Action: Cantrip
Bonus Action: Cast Spiritual Weapon

Subsequent Rounds:
Action: Dissonant Whispers, Blindness/Deafness, or Cantrip
Bonus Action: Attack with Spiritual Weapon, or direct animated objects

Reactions (all rounds):
Cutting Words, Shield, or Counterspell


The Bottom Line

So, am I overstating the survivability and action economy issues here? If I'm not, is divine soul sorcerer the best solution? And how does that spell list look, given the play-style goals and party composition? Would love to get some wisdom from you wise folks on these fora!

Esker said:

So, am I overstating the survivability and action economy issues here?

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That question is more on your table then on just your character. What's yur team dynamic, do you have enough protectors, what types of encounters and tactics do you see from your DM? What magic items are found that could help offset it?

Since you aren't planning on dipping until later levels (you mentions 7 as most likely), my suggestion would be play and see how it ends up. That'll give you much better information-in-context for making the decision.

P.S. Welcome to the forums. Have some XP.

Esker said:

The two biggest things that concern me about going straight lore bard are (1) durability, and (2) having useful actions while concentrating, particularly at the middle-levels (still need to conserve spell slots, but vicious mockery is starting to lose its luster against multi-attack enemies).

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These are both reasonable concerns. The Lore Bard will be wearing studded leather (AC 15), and have no defenses beyond cutting word, which works (sometimes) only against a single attack using up your reaction. With d8+2 hp, there is reason to be cautious.

Actions while concentrating is also a reasonable concern. Bards don't really do blasts, and as you mention, Vicious Mokery is fairly useful at lower levels, once you start fighting creatures with multiple attacks, also, not great.

I know that a two-level Hexblade dip is the standard solution to this, but I hesitate to delay spell progression that much (although the short-rest renewal of a couple first level slots is appealing).

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Let's be clear. Spell Progression will be delayed no matter your multiclass. A Bard 6/Sorcerer 1 is still limited to 3rd level spells, even if they have a 4th level slot.

Pretty much universally, a spell cast with a higher level slot isn't on par with a spell of that level.

Of course, 2 levels of Hexblade slows down progression more than one level of sorcerer, but consider 1 level of Hexblade. Yes, agonizing blast, the second spell and another invocation are all really inticing, but consider what one level gets you:

1) You get that shield spell you wanted
2) Medium armor and shield
3) Hexblade's curse
4) Martial weapon proficiency
5) a spell that comes back with every short rest (because shield and healing word will see use at higher levels)

Not too shabby.

What I keep coming back to, therefore, is a single level of Divine Soul (Chaotic) Sorcerer (probably at Level 7), which gives several goodies:

• Access to shield, freeing up a bard slot to take something other than bane, and either another defensive reaction like absorb elements or freeing up a second bard slot by taking healing word as a sorcerer spell.
• The Favored by the Gods ability, which seems really strong (I'll hardly ever make an important attack roll, but boosting a failed saving throw once per short rest? Yes please!), and makes maxing CHA before taking Resilient CON seem more comfortable.
• Keeping up spell slot progression (compared to Hexblade, though no short rest renewal)

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I would first point out that both options get you shield. However, Sorcerer gets you AC 15+shield (for AC 20), Warlock gets you AC 19+shield (for AC 24). Also, shield is a level 1 spell drainer. There may be some advantage in a first level slot that comes back with a short rest when combined with the shield spell

Favored by the Gods is a nice ability. This is a definite plus for the Sorcerer choice

Spell slot progression is still probably better than a short-rest renewed first level slot, though again, remember you are not improving spell level progression. I would still rank spell slot progression as the better option, but less dramatically so.

I think either Hexblade or Divine Soul would work, RP-wise. Hexblade gives better passive defense, the best single offensive cantrip, and more 1st level spell use. Divine soul gives more higher level spell use, more useful spells known, cantrip versatility, and a great class ability.

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Each option gives some goodies. Now, let's remember your reasons for multiclassing in the first place:
1) Survivability
2) Actions while concentrating

So let's see how each option addresses these concerns
Hexblade
1) AC 19, Shield, Armor of Agathys, D8 hp
2) Eldritch blast (no agonizing blast, so d10 base, up to 4d10), also, I know you said you aren't interested in melee, but for versatility sake, a martial weapon tied to Cha. Hexblade's curse

Divine Soul
1) AC 15, Shield, Favored by the gods, D6 hp
2) d8 cantrip damage (ray of frost or sacred flame)

There are advantages for both options, though, IMO, the scale is slightly in favor of Hexblade.

Spells, Spells, Spells

Here's what I'm thinking spell selection-wise if I go Divine Soul. The idea is to focus mainly on imposing penalties on enemies' rolls, diversified by save type and targeting mechanism, to squeeze as much out of the action economy as possible (hence Spiritual Weapon at level 6, even though it's a straight damage spell and so doesn't fit that well with the theme), and otherwise use magical secrets to do things that others in the party couldn't do or couldn't do as well (hence Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Circle of Power).

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Spiritual Weapon is a fantastic spell, though you may find some serious competition for bonus actions. Remember that your inspiriation, animated objects (if you use that), healing word and more use bonus actions.

I would recommend a look at Find Steed and, frankly if you don't have a Ranger or Druid, Pass without trace as possible magical secret options. The spells you listed are good spells too, I'm just providing some other options to think about.

Thanks for the welcome and the XP! Your suggestion to wait and see is eminently sensible. I know I'm way overplanning here! It's a fun way to stay in D&D space when not actually playing, though.

It's early going but so far the cleric and the wizard have played pretty standard for their classes: in combat, the cleric tanks, bashes things, and does some healing; the wizard hangs back and blasts. The monk has an unconventional streak, and has a tendency to grapple or improvise (for example, lighting things on fire, or making a lasso to try to snatch a key material component from a sorcerer boss). It's been a pretty combat-heavy campaign, with not much opportunity for long rests, though the DM has gone easy within encounters to this point, liberally throwing in friendly NPCs to absorb attacks. I expect the frenetic pace will mellow out some. No magic items relevant to my character yet.

Thanks so much for this detailed and super useful reply, Treantmonk!

Of course, 2 levels of Hexblade slows down progression more than one level of sorcerer, but consider 1 level of Hexblade. Yes, agonizing blast, the second spell and another invocation are all really inticing, but consider what one level gets you:

1) You get that shield spell you wanted
2) Medium armor and shield
3) Hexblade's curse
4) Martial weapon proficiency
5) a spell that comes back with every short rest (because shield and healing word will see use at higher levels)

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I don't think martial weapon proficiency does much for me, since the bard is already proficient with the only one-handed martial weapons that are based on DEX (except scimitars and whips, I guess), and longbows and heavy crossbows aren't compatible with using a shield (which is a big part of the draw). But everything else on this list is very useful. And yeah, the shield spell is probably more useful for a hexblade than a sorcerer because of the short rest mechanic.

There's no question that Hexblade gives better defense from regular attacks (I do want to be stealthy, so would probably stick to breastplate rather than half-plate, so 18 vs 15 AC, but still). If I'm breaking things down for each concern separately, it looks to me like:

Defense

Hexblade:
1) +3 AC
2) Armor of Agathys (though I don't know how useful this will be, as you have to pre-cast it, probably using a higher level slot for the HP to stay relevant)
3) +1 max HP
4) some extra HP from time to time from Hexblade's curse kills
5) can use shield spell more often

Divine Soul:
1) Favored by the Gods
2) Absorb Elements(?)

Basically, it's (substantially) superior protection from regular attacks vs superior protection from saving throw type effects. I tend to agree that the edge goes to Hexblade here, since even though I'm going to do my best not to be targeted by attacks, passive defense is better than defense that you need to use an ability or spell slot for. But I haven't played 5e enough (in fact haven't played at all above lower levels) to have a sense of the relative value of AC vs a saving throw buff at higher levels.

Offense

Hexblade:
1) Eldritch Blast (d10 force)
2) Some extra damage from Hexblade's curse

Divine Soul:
1) Choice of lesser damage cantrips that can be tailored to weak points (i.e., targeting saves instead of AC)
2) some nice side effects on those cantrips (could sub firebolt for ray of frost to get that straight d10, though the damage type is worse than EB and it's limited to one target)

This is also not exactly apples-to-apples, since you trade raw damage for some extra flexibility. Feels close to a wash to me, I think, at least if the DM allows me to make some knowledge checks to probe for weak saves... Clearly that 2nd warlock level would make it no contest.

Spell Slots

Hexblade: Short rest renewing 1st level spell slot, especially useful for shield, healing word, faerie fire

Divine Soul: Let's map out what the spell slot difference looks like over time
L7: Can upcast something to 4th level once a day (at worst, an extra 3rd level slot)
L8: An extra 4th level cast each day
L9: An extra 4th level cast, and can upcast something to 5th level (at worst, another extra 4th level cast)
L10: an extra 5th level cast
L11: Can upcast something to 6th level (at worst, an extra 5th level cast)
L12: no benefit
L13: An extra 6th level cast, or upcast something to 7th
L14: no benefit
L15: An extra 7th level cast, or upcast something to 8th
L16: no benefit
L17: An extra 8th level cast, or upcast something to 9th
L18: An extra 5th level slot
L19: An extra 6th level slot
L20: An extra 7th level slot

It's obviously difficult to weigh these without knowing how many short rests per day to expect, but I guess if we take the standard recommendation, it probably amounts to something like 2 or 3 extra 1st level casts per day against the higher level casts listed above. I think I'd agree with you that this is advantage sorcerer, though it's not totally unambiguous either.

Misc.

Divine soul effectively yields one extra bard spell known at any level, or two if I don't take absorb elements.

Pass Without Trace was definitely on my list of strong contenders. My character is stealthy, but no one else is, especially, so it'd definitely be useful. My thinking about bonus actions is that I'd be able to give a general goal to my animated objects that they could carry out over several turns, rather than micromanaging them, so it wouldn't have too much competition with spiritual weapon. But I don't know how most DMs rule about that (I'll definitely ask when it comes time to commit). I'm also hoping I don't need to use healing word too often (mostly only if the cleric goes down or runs out of spell slots), and I'm imagining I'll use cutting words more often than regular bardic inspiration (as I suggested, probably typically use one regular inspiration per combat in the first round, then cutting words from there, but could turn out different in practice --- what's your experience with lore bards here?).

Esker said:

Pass Without Trace was definitely on my list of strong contenders. My character is stealthy, but no one else is, especially, so it'd definitely be useful. My thinking about bonus actions is that I'd be able to give a general goal to my animated objects that they could carry out over several turns, rather than micromanaging them, so it wouldn't have too much competition with spiritual weapon. But I don't know how most DMs rule about that (I'll definitely ask when it comes time to commit). I'm also hoping I don't need to use healing word too often (mostly only if the cleric goes down or runs out of spell slots), and I'm imagining I'll use cutting words more often than regular bardic inspiration (as I suggested, probably typically use one regular inspiration per combat in the first round, then cutting words from there, but could turn out different in practice --- what's your experience with lore bards here?).

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My experience is that it really depends on your playstyle. Personally, I give out inspiration like crazy. If a big boss battle is ahead, I'll give out all my inspiration.

If you are newer to 5e, here's my Bard tip, you will come back and thank me: When you give someone inspiration, take a die out of your bag (that is equal to the inspiration die) and put it in front of the player you are giving it to. It stays there until they roll it, at which point they give it back to you.

This helps everyone remember that the player has inspiration, so when they miss that important saving throw or attack roll, it's easy to remember that they can take a chance on inspiration saving the day.

Cutting words honestly I've had little success with. It sounds so great when you read it, and I enjoy the roleplaying aspect (throw a goading insult to the enemy attacking you), but the single attack issue I mentioned before is actually a big issue - you are so much better using your reaction for a shield spell. Now, you can use it to help your allies too, though it's using up your reaction, so leaving you without defense options.

Personally, I have come to prefer the Valor Bard over the Lore Bard. Not only do you get the armor and shield proficiencies without multiclassing, but combat inspiration is just more flexible. Then your ally can just use their inspiration to spike their own AC, and nobody has to give up a reaction. However, you don't get those sweet magical secrets at level 6...

Treantmonklvl20 said:

My experience is that it really depends on your playstyle. Personally, I give out inspiration like crazy. If a big boss battle is ahead, I'll give out all my inspiration.

If you are newer to 5e, here's my Bard tip, you will come back and thank me: When you give someone inspiration, take a die out of your bag (that is equal to the inspiration die) and put it in front of the player you are giving it to. It stays there until they roll it, at which point they give it back to you.

This helps everyone remember that the player has inspiration, so when they miss that important saving throw or attack roll, it's easy to remember that they can take a chance on inspiration saving the day.

Cutting words honestly I've had little success with. It sounds so great when you read it, and I enjoy the roleplaying aspect (throw a goading insult to the enemy attacking you), but the single attack issue I mentioned before is actually a big issue - you are so much better using your reaction for a shield spell. Now, you can use it to help your allies too, though it's using up your reaction, so leaving you without defense options.

Personally, I have come to prefer the Valor Bard over the Lore Bard. Not only do you get the armor and shield proficiencies without multiclassing, but combat inspiration is just more flexible. Then your ally can just use their inspiration to spike their own AC, and nobody has to give up a reaction. However, you don't get those sweet magical secrets at level 6...

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I do the same thing with the inspiration dice, just pick a different color then the dice they use. Inevitably players forget that it is there but suddenly do when their bacon is just about cooked.

I am just having a real good time playing a Strength based Valor Bard with first level storm sorcerer for RP purposes. The early levels were tough until the armor came on, but its been a blast since then. Having multiple attacks gives you more options to use and more ways to contribute in "lesser" encounters on long adventuring days, allowing you to stretch your spells a little more. The bonus action 10' fly move to get out of trouble has saved me on a lot of incoming attacks as I can duck behind a our Paladin or Monk.

Of course I took warcaster right away to not worry about spell use, and using Booming Blade on opportunity attack. With Dissonant Whispers and two Command users in party makes it a very usable feat. The issue of course is Shield spell usage as a PC who is in melee sometimes, spell slots can go fast.


In the OP case, the frontline isn't that strong with no fighter type so he will have to spend some time there.

smbakeresq said:

Having multiple attacks gives you more options to use and more ways to contribute in "lesser" encounters on long adventuring days, allowing you to stretch your spells a little more.
...
In the OP case, the frontline isn't that strong with no fighter type so he will have to spend some time there.

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Yeah, I'm a bit worried about the front line. We originally had a five person party with a fighter and a paladin, but they both left and were replaced by the cleric, so we're now pretty caster-heavy. The cleric is a variant human with warcaster, and seriously lucked out rolling for stats and wound up with 16 each for strength and con and 18 wisdom (DM let us roll with point buy as a fallback if we didn't like the result; I think everyone else wound up with point buy), so she's tankier and bashier than an average low level life cleric, but even so, yeah, compared to the canonical Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard point of reference we're a squishy party.

Treantmonklvl20 said:

If you are newer to 5e, here's my Bard tip, you will come back and thank me: When you give someone inspiration, take a die out of your bag (that is equal to the inspiration die) and put it in front of the player you are giving it to. It stays there until they roll it, at which point they give it back to you.

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That's a nice idea, thanks. People do have a tendency to forget about it.

Cutting words honestly I've had little success with. It sounds so great when you read it, and I enjoy the roleplaying aspect (throw a goading insult to the enemy attacking you), but the single attack issue I mentioned before is actually a big issue - you are so much better using your reaction for a shield spell. Now, you can use it to help your allies too, though it's using up your reaction, so leaving you without defense options.

Personally, I have come to prefer the Valor Bard over the Lore Bard. Not only do you get the armor and shield proficiencies without multiclassing, but combat inspiration is just more flexible. Then your ally can just use their inspiration to spike their own AC, and nobody has to give up a reaction. However, you don't get those sweet magical secrets at level 6...

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Interesting. The conventional wisdom on teh interwebs certainly seems to be that cutting words is the superior of the two inspiration types, mainly due to not having to pre-use it. But that probably presumes a pure class character with no shield spell to compete for the reaction. Those magical secrets tho...