D&D 5E Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Interesting. The conventional wisdom on teh interwebs certainly seems to be that cutting words is the superior of the two inspiration types, mainly due to not having to pre-use it. But that probably presumes a pure class character with no shield spell to compete for the reaction. Those magical secrets tho...

Cutting Words is 100000000% more effective than Shield when you aren't the one being attacked for the simple reason that Shield can't help them but Cutting Words can act against any foe in 60' you see, regardless of whom they are attacking. Shield is a great spell, and picking up Shield doesn't negate having Cutting Words. But eventually up to five times per short rest being able to help an attack against any ally. Or to mess up an ability check. Note that a lot of debuff spells are an ability check to get out of; it's only a save to see if it affects them in the first place. Shield is very nice, and there are times it's superior - such as well a lot of attacks are coming at you in the same round. But CW is quite strong.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Esker

Hero
Cutting Words is 100000000% more effective than Shield when you aren't the one being attacked for the simple reason that Shield can't help them but Cutting Words can act against any foe in 60' you see, regardless of whom they are attacking.

Oh, for sure. I take it Treantmonk's point was that the valor bard can pass around combat inspiration ahead of time, and then those allies can use their own reaction instead of yours to boost their AC, achieving the same effect as the bard using cutting words on the attack roll. But that does require pre-using it, it's still somebody's reaction used, and you can't use it against ability checks.

Note that a lot of debuff spells are an ability check to get out of; it's only a save to see if it affects them in the first place.

What spells do you have in mind? The only one I'm seeing on my list now is Bones of the Earth... there are also some other restraint spells like web and Evard's Black Tentacles, but those would require magical secrets slots as well.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
What spells do you have in mind? The only one I'm seeing on my list now is Bones of the Earth... there are also some other restraint spells like web and Evard's Black Tentacles, but those would require magical secrets slots as well.

D&D is a team game - you shouldn't care about what's on just your list. You don't need to be self-sufficient, and part of being the most effective bard is making others shine. Web is the first one off the top of my head, but there are a lot of them.

Remember, bards do their best when they are a force multiplier for the whole party.
 


Interesting. The conventional wisdom on teh interwebs certainly seems to be that cutting words is the superior of the two inspiration types, mainly due to not having to pre-use it. But that probably presumes a pure class character with no shield spell to compete for the reaction. Those magical secrets tho...

Here's an important thing to understand. As I guide writer, I can attest that you need to review things you've never played. You read, you evaluate, you write.

Therefore, there is a very good reason why the guides rank Lore Bards higher, because it reads better. Once a guide is out for awhile, especially if it's a good guide (Like Mellowred's excellent guide), it becomes the conventional wisdom.

When I first read the Player's Handbook, I read Bard and came to the conclusion: Lore Bard is the caster bard and Valor bard is the weapon bard. I made a mistake of course, but I think and understandable one. That level 6 extra attack is like a rocket to the brain of an optimizer. It is VERY difficult to ignore.

So the natural instinct was to try to make a weapon centred Valor Bard. The problem is Bard spells. They REALLY don't help a weapon-build. Particularly with damage. War Clerics get Divine Favor, Rangers get Hunter's mark, Warlocks get Hex. Bard spells just don't help much.

Then you get the "optimizers" that see Swift Quiver on the level 5 Ranger list, and figure a Valor Bard who takes it with their magical secrets at level 10 makes an AMAZING archer. Except no. You get 10 levels of being a sub-standard archer, then 10 more of being an OK archer after round 1 once or twice per day and substandard the rest of the time.

It took years of playing to realize what I had missed. You need to ignore the extra attack. What a Valor Bard is, and what they excel at, is casting. They are a caster, like your party sorcerer, except they have more skills, JOAT, Inspiration, and a good AC.

Now, it's easy to assume the Lore Bard is signficantly better at casting, after all, magical secrets at level 6 right? I mean fireball? Shield?

Here's the thing though, at level 5 is when the Bard spell list really comes into its own.
Best level 3 combat spell in the game: Hypnotic Pattern (You lore bards that waste your 3rd level slots on fireball make me sad)
Best level 4 combat spell in the game: Polymorph
Best level 5 combat spell in the game: Animate objects

and shield? If you had half-plate and a real shield, you wouldn't need shield in the first place.

Then let's talk about combat inspiration vs. cutting words.

Combat inspiration: Uses your bonus action BEFORE A COMBAT (if you're smart), can boost everything normal inspiration can plus AC and DAMAGE
Cutting words: You can use it on yourself, but hey, not if you cast shield. It's definitely not as good as shield, so that's OK. You can use it to help a friend, but not in the same round you cast shield or use it for yourself. Also, I hope 2 friends don't need it in the same round, because so sorry, it's one per round.

I'm painting a one-sided picture here, and frankly Lore Bards are pretty great too, I have really come around though with several chances to play each that I think the Valor Bard is the superior option of the two.

Now if you do want to make a weapon using bard, actually, a college of swords multiclass with paladin is pretty friggin' great.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Cutting words: You can use it on yourself, but hey, not if you cast shield. It's definitely not as good as shield, so that's OK. You can use it to help a friend, but not in the same round you cast shield or use it for yourself. Also, I hope 2 friends don't need it in the same round, because so sorry, it's one per round.

I don't think your evaluation is complete. It looks primarily at the case of defenses of the caster.

First, the evaluation just pushed off to a later point that it can help others, which is a major bonus to the power as a whole.

Second, it does not count in the opportunity cost of getting shield, which is high. You are giving up a whole magical secret for something with only a minor improvement in protecting yourself.

Third, the evaluation ignores how it can also be used in other ways than attacks, such as causing an enemy for fail an abilty check, such as athletics while climbing or any number of ability checks to resist spells like web.

Fourth, the resource pool to use Cutting Word is much deeper than to cast shield. About 15 uses a day (assuming two short rests) with a 20 CHR and 5th level. It's a long time before you can get that many spell slots total, much less you want to devote to personal AC-only defense.

So in the end, you pay a high opportunity cost for something with only a limited delta of improvement that is used from a more limited resource pool. For one particular purpose shield is better and if it came for free it would b worth it, and if it was on the bard's list it would probably be worth a spells known. But it varies a lot by play if it's worth the cost of one of the magical secrets to get - it is not a clear winner.
 

I don't think your evaluation is complete. It looks primarily at the case of defenses of the caster.

First, the evaluation just pushed off to a later point that it can help others, which is a major bonus to the power as a whole.

It's inspiration. It always helps others. In fact, the main advantage of cutting words is it can also help yourself.

Combat inspiration, the ability I compare it to, helps others. In fact, it only helps others. It also objectively helps others to a greater degree than cutting words, because in addition to all the regular inspiration abilities, and adding to AC, it can also add to damage.

Second, it does not count in the opportunity cost of getting shield, which is high. You are giving up a whole magical secret for something with only a minor improvement in protecting yourself.
Lore bards are weak on defense. Shield is one way to mitigate that. However, let's not pretend that Cutting words and Shield are similar in defensive value. They are not. Cutting words works against one attack, shield works against every attack in a round. Since magical secrets is gained at level 6, multiple attacks per round is already fairly common, not even taking into account multiple attackers.

Third, the evaluation ignores how it can also be used in other ways than attacks, such as causing an enemy for fail an abilty check, such as athletics while climbing or any number of ability checks to resist spells like web.

That's because that use is so circumstantial it's not of great value.

Fourth, the resource pool to use Cutting Word is much deeper than to cast shield. About 15 uses a day (assuming two short rests) with a 20 CHR and 5th level. It's a long time before you can get that many spell slots total, much less you want to devote to personal AC-only defense.

Let's be clear here. A valor bard can have a +4 AC ALL THE TIME FOR FREE. A Lore bard can have +5 from shield a few times a day, or +1dX from cutting words, several times per day, but every time they cast shield, a Valor bard could get a 1st level spell for something else. Every time they use cutting words, a Valor bard could have used Inspiration that could aid a saving throw, an attack roll, an ability check, an AC boost or a damage roll.

This isn't close. Let's not pretend it is. Valor bards have the same number of inspiration as Valor bards, except their inspiration is demonstrably worse. They have the same number of 1st level spell slots (or any other spell slots for that matter), and a significantly worse AC. Cutting words does not cover the gap. Shield does not cover the gap. Now, if a lore bard player is smart, taking spells like Counterspell and Find Familiar (for example), can provide other strengths, but that weak AC is going to be a problem that will plague them, unless they multiclass or find another way to deal with it. Cutting words isn't the solution. That one attack per round limit becomes pretty limiting when you face your first giant for example.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Lore bards are weak on defense. Shield is one way to mitigate that.

Shield is one way to mitigate it with a high opportunity cost. Which, considering that you have a reasonable if not as-good ability already, may be too much to pay.

However, let's not pretend that Cutting words and Shield are similar in defensive value. They are not. Cutting words works against one attack, shield works against every attack in a round.

Okay, let's NOT pretend they are the same. Considering this is a team game, how many attacks per round are you expecting on the bard? How many are going to hit (but not crit) so that Shield and Cutting Words have a chance to stop them? I put forth that the majority of time it's not going to be more than one, only occasionally will a second one potentially hit-and-be-turned-into a-a-miss on a non-frontline character. So shield's extra blockages during a single round are a rare event.

Then add in that the average penalty to their attack is bigger than shield's bonus once you hit 10th, more than +50% of average at 15th. So against a single attack it protects better.

Now, how many rounds total during the day? Because once you blow through your 4 first level spells you using even higher level slots, while Cutting Words (once you hit 5th) is CHR mode times per short rest.

So, let's sum up - extra attacks that hit but not by enough to eclipse Shield or Cuttin Words are not likely to occur multiple times in the same round, so that extra bonus for shield is useful maybe once or twice a day.

Cuttings Words gives a bigger defensive boost then Shield once you hit 10th.

Cutting Words has a lot more uses per day then Shield so someone who needs their slots to function as a primary caster.

Shield has an opportunity cost.

All in all, Shield looks like decidedly the second class choice.

[/quote]Let's be clear here. A valor bard can ...[/QUOTE]

Valor Bards don't get Cutting Words, so they can't be part of the discussion between Cutting Words and Shield, which is the only thing I was talking about. You were mentioning Valor Bards to someone else.
 

Esker

Hero
I would just like to note, by the way, that I love how this thread has evolved, and I'm really enjoying hearing what the two of you as very experienced, knowledgeable, and articulate commenters have to say about all of this. I'm trying to mostly sit back and take it in since, frankly, I don't have anywhere near the time on the ground (or, at the table) that you two have, so most of what I can contribute is based on armchair analysis.

What a Valor Bard is, and what they excel at, is casting. They are a caster, like your party sorcerer, except they have more skills, JOAT, Inspiration, and a good AC.

Now, it's easy to assume the Lore Bard is signficantly better at casting, after all, magical secrets at level 6 right? I mean fireball? Shield?

Here's the thing though, at level 5 is when the Bard spell list really comes into its own.
Best level 3 combat spell in the game: Hypnotic Pattern (You lore bards that waste your 3rd level slots on fireball make me sad)
Best level 4 combat spell in the game: Polymorph
Best level 5 combat spell in the game: Animate objects

and shield? If you had half-plate and a real shield, you wouldn't need shield in the first place.

Interesting perspective. Definitely counterintuitive to think of the valor bard as coming out on top on a caster-to-caster comparison. I'm not fully sold, but you make a strong case!

Totally agree re: fireball. I can imagine party compositions where you might take it, but if straight damage is that high a priority, why are you a bard? If you're spending magical secrets on shield and fireball, you're playing catch up, not leaning in to what a lore bard can be. Agree even more so about swift quiver. It's a nice boost, but doesn't in any way seem like something you'd organize a whole build around, or even something that's worth spending a 5th level slot on, compared to other things you could be casting at that level. Even if all you're interested in is damage, animate objects gives you way more of it per turn than two measly arrow shots.

If you're going to spend a magical secrets pick on self-protection (which I'm not sure seems like a good move), it feels to me like mirror image is a better choice than shield as a lore bard. Yes, it's a higher level slot, but unless you're taking a lot of attacks in a round (which, as a lore bard, probably means you or your party have done something wrong, no?), it's likely to give you stronger protection, from more attacks, without competing for your reaction (so you can stack cutting words on top of it if needed). Would you agree? On the other hand, if you're staying out of the fray like you should be doing as a lore bard, maybe you hope that you need that spell less than once per combat encounter on average, in which case you'd rather use the spell slot reactively than have to use it prospectively.

As to the cutting words vs. combat inspiration comparison, it seems like you're trading one type of flexibility for another. I think it's clear that combat inspiration gives you a more useful set of options, largely because you can simply give out the die and then the user can as needed use it as either regular bardic inspiration or on a damage roll / AC boost. That's not something I'd fully considered, honestly. And it's not necessarily limited to one use per round, provided you have enough warning to hand it out ahead of time.

On the other hand, if the distribution of important borderline attack rolls is concentrated on a particular character, rather than in a particular round, it seems like cutting words makes it more likely than you can allocate your inspirations optimally (instead of handing out one to each character). As far as the ability check use, it does seem a lot more situational, although it's also difficult for me to imagine, even with 15 inspiration uses per day, that using combat inspiration to bump damage in place of on an attack roll is going to get used that often, since unless you can use it so liberally that there just aren't enough attacks in a day that are within spitting distance of hitting, going from zero to one attack's worth of damage should usually be more valuable than 1dX worth of damage, level for level. At least assuming you're using your inspiration on a character with reasonably powerful attacks for the level.

As to the reaction use, both the combat inspiration AC boost and cutting words use a reaction, it's just that one uses yours and the other uses the character's reaction who's getting hit. My intuition is that more often than not, the players getting hit more are going to have more competition for their reactions, or at least, place more value on threatening something with a possible reaction. If you hand combat inspiration to your fighter and they use it to make an attack miss them, now whoever is engaged with them basically now has a free disengage if they want it. Moreover, frontline types often have class abilities that use reactions, for example protection style or riposte maneuver for a fighter). Whereas if you do the same thing with cutting words, it's your reaction, and you're probably not threatening many AoOs.

In my limited experience so far, what I've found is that I can often give one person inspiration before combat starts, but there is usually not enough warning that a battle is coming in the next, say, 9 in-game minutes (let alone knowing that it's a battle that will merit a use of inspiration, though that gets easier after level 5, and I'm not there yet) for more than one turn's worth of action. It might be that I could be more efficient about this, but it does feel so far that being able to pick and choose spots on the spot is a boon.

Again, I'm not really speaking from much experience, so grain of salt with all of this.
 

how many attacks per round are you expecting on the bard?
Aywhere between 0 and 6 depending on the opponent, whether they target casters, and how many attacks per round they get

How many are going to hit (but not crit) so that Shield and Cutting Words have a chance to stop them
?
Lore bards wear light armor, use no shield, focus on Cha, have no other defenses, have no spells that improve AC, they will be hit a LOT. However, as a player, you don't get to know how much they hit you by when considering using cutting words or a shield. In many cases, it won't help you admittedly.

I put forth that the majority of time it's not going to be more than one
That is not my experience. In fact, that's the experience that has largely had me re-evaluate Lore Bards in general, that maybe turning away one attack in a round just doesn't cut it for a weak-defense character with mid-range HP.

Then add in that the average penalty to their attack is bigger than shield's bonus once you hit 10th, more than +50% of average at 15th. So against a single attack it protects better.
By 15th level, if you haven't found another way to bolster your defense, neither are working most of the time. Many creatures will be attacking with bonuses as big as your AC. Also, I will always take a flat bonus over a random bonus, regardless of whether the "average" is. Doubly so when you are talking about defense. You cannot count on a random bonus.

Now, how many rounds total during the day? Because once you blow through your 4 first level spells you using even higher level slots, while Cutting Words (once you hit 5th) is CHR mode times per short rest.
If you take shield, it does not replace cutting words. If you take shield, you get shield and cutting words. In those rare times where you are attacked only once, you can use cutting words, if you are attacked 6 times, then shield is the better option.

So, let's sum up - extra attacks that hit but not by enough to eclipse Shield or Cuttin Words are not likely to occur multiple times in the same round
What monsters are you fighting that spread out their attacks like that?

DM: The Hill giant attacks twice, once on the Bard, and hits. OK, turned it to a miss with cutting words. Second attack, oh, let's say he throws a rock at the full plate fighter.

Honestly, your experience is not the standard.

Cutting Words has a lot more uses per day then Shield so someone who needs their slots to function as a primary caster.

1st level spell/Inspiration. These are similar in power and benefit. Giving up one to save the other doesn't make you a better "primary caster".

All in all, Shield looks like decidedly the second class choice.
There's a reason it's a meme
 

Remove ads

Top