D&D 5E Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip

[Treantmonklvl20]

Definitely counterintuitive to think of the valor bard as coming out on top on a caster-to-caster comparison.

If that's the way it came out, then I overstated. I'm saying a Valor Bard is not a significantly worse caster than a Lore Bard, but has superior defense and use of inspiration, making them the better choice overall.

animate objects gives you way more of it per turn than two measly arrow shots.

Yes.

If you're going to spend a magical secrets pick on self-protection (which I'm not sure seems like a good move), it feels to me like mirror image is a better choice than shield as a lore bard. Yes, it's a higher level slot, but unless you're taking a lot of attacks in a round (which, as a lore bard, probably means you or your party have done something wrong, no?), it's likely to give you stronger protection, from more attacks, without competing for your reaction (so you can stack cutting words on top of it if needed). Would you agree?

Here's the situation. As a (single classed) Lore Bard, you have (likely) studded leather armor. No shield. Dex 16 if you're lucky. That's an AC of 15. No spells that improve defense other than improved invisibility (which isn't a very good option as it uses your concentration, which all your good offense spells use as well). Your HP are d8. You are easily identified as the primary caster in combat and will certainly be targeted by attacks.

This is not a good combination. At level 6, when magical secrets comes around, you are probably going to want to do something about it. There are a few options:

Mirror Image: Good against up to 3 attacks. Does not use concentration. Uses your action to set up. If you know battle is about to start, you can potentially get it up beforehand.
Shield: Good against all attacks in one round. Does not use concentration. Uses your reaction to set up.

Honestly, neither is a perfect defense, but I would certainly take one of them, or maybe even both of them. Remember, if you lose initiative, that mirror image isn't going to help you.

On the other hand, if you're staying out of the fray like you should be doing as a lore bard, maybe you hope that you need that spell less than once per combat encounter on average, in which case you'd rather use the spell slot reactively than have to use it prospectively.

One thing I have lots of experience in is playing the caster who hangs back in combat. I also have lots of experience talking to other players who play this type of character. I've also read many adventures where the enemy tactics are provided for the DM.

I will tell you this. Many combats you can avoid attacks entirely. Many combats you get targeted. The "average" is meaningless. It's a pendulum. You get attacked lots, or not at all.

Those combats where you get attacked not at all aren't the problem. A Wizard who gets attacked lots has lots of defenses. Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Blur, Mage Armor, Counterspell, and the list goes on.

Lore bards have studded leather armor. They can use cutting words against one hit on them per round, and maybe, maybe turn it to a miss. It's not enough.

I can say this without question. I've seen more Lore Bard deaths in 5e than any other archetype. AC is bad, HP are so-so, and the defenses aren't there. In battles where the primary caster gets targeted, they just don't have anything to fall back on.

Often, this is before magical secrets is even available.

On the other hand, if the distribution of important borderline attack rolls is concentrated on a particular character, rather than in a particular round, it seems like cutting words makes it more likely than you can allocate your inspirations optimally (instead of handing out one to each character).

Keep in mind, other classes have defenses of their own as well. They wear heavy armor, or can cut enemy damage in half, or have a ton of HP, or spells that get them out of danger, or several of those things.

Not saying you won't be using cutting words to help other party members, and that being able to target one being picked on more than once isn't an advantage, just keep in mind that other party members are usually better at defending themselves.

that using combat inspiration to bump damage in place of on an attack roll is going to get used that often

Here's where I find it gets used.

Player: Does 15 hit?
DM: Yes
Player: 12 damage
DM: (laughs), You hit him hard, he's wavering, but still up!
Player: I use the inspiration die! Add 5 damage
DM: That does it.

 

[Esker]

I'm saying a Valor Bard is not a significantly worse caster than a Lore Bard, but has superior defense and use of inspiration, making them the better choice overall.

Yeah, we're on the same page. By caster-to-caster comparison I just meant that if you never picked up a weapon, which character would be more effective. Defense has to be part of evaluating a caster, since a dead caster is the least effective of all.

At level 6, when magical secrets comes around, you are probably going to want to do something about it. ... I would certainly take one of [shield or mirror image], or maybe even both of them.

It definitely seems like if you're spending both of your extra magical secrets shoring up your defenses, and still coming out still worse off than if you had medium armor and a shield, then you're not gaining much from choosing to be a lore bard. And I guess that's what you're saying. I guess it feels like a one level dip to improve defense and get some other things that help you, leaving magical secrets for added flexibility, is a better choice than spending magical secrets on defense. But that delay in spell progression is a big deal. I guess another option is to spend a feat getting medium armor and shields, but unless you can survive to level 12 for that (or, I suppose, you're a variant human), it means living with a worse spell DC for several levels.

Many combats you can avoid attacks entirely. Many combats you get targeted. The "average" is meaningless. It's a pendulum. You get attacked lots, or not at all.

Sure. I just meant that if a lot of the time you don't get attacked at all, then pre-casting mirror image as a habit might be a poor choice, and you'd rather have shield (I guess unless you know which type of combat it is ahead of time).

Lore bards have studded leather armor. They can use cutting words against one hit on them per round, and maybe, maybe turn it to a miss. It's not enough.

Agree there. You definitely want to do something. The question is what's best? The choices seem to be: magical secrets, a dip, a feat, or be a valor bard instead.

Here's where I find it gets used.

Player: Does 15 hit?
DM: Yes
Player: 12 damage
DM: (laughs), You hit him hard, he's wavering, but still up!
Player: I use the inspiration die! Add 5 damage
DM: That does it.

Oh, bumping damage gets much better if you get to know before using the die whether your attack would have killed the opponent or not. Is it reasonable to ask that you know that, though, given that the ability for attack rolls explicitly states that you aren't supposed to know whether your attack hits or not? If you get information about kill vs. not kill but don't get information about hit vs. not hit, that seems like stacking the deck in favor of combat inspiration. At my table, any augmentation to damage needs to be applied before the DM says anything about whether the creature dies, let alone whether it's close to dying (and he rolls for enemy HP, so we can't even count on two identical creatures having the same number).

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

At my table, any augmentation to damage needs to be applied before the DM says anything about whether the creature dies, let alone whether it's close to dying (and he rolls for enemy HP, so we can't even count on two identical creatures having the same number).

Yes, that's a much better way to do it.

 

[Blue]

What monsters are you fighting that spread out their attacks like that?

DM: The Hill giant attacks twice, once on the Bard, and hits. OK, turned it to a miss with cutting words. Second attack, oh, let's say he throws a rock at the full plate fighter.

Honestly, your experience is not the standard.

As a low-AC caster I hope you are playing defensively so thy don't always have shots at you. Using cover, ducking fully beihind something, having the rest of the party between you and melee opponents. I'm sorry that you think use of terrain and teammates to protect the squishies is "not the standard", we'll just have to disagree about that and let others make up their own mind.

So, some rounds you may not be visible, etc. Some rounds melee foes would need to suck attacks of opportunity to close with you can chose not to, or don't have the movement to, or whatever. Great, those rounds no attacks either way.

With cover (even if just an ally), let's assume that bounded accuracy says we'll hit around half the time. While a mathematical oversimplification, that's about one attack that hits per two attacks made. So 2 attacks -> 1 hit. At this point Shield and Cutting Words can help. At 6th (when you could have shield), it can protect against a 4 point range, or about 40% assuming the 50/50 chance (10 points) to hit. Cutting Words at that point averages 4.5 point range, so it's already a touch better on average. 45% of the first hits will be stopped by it at that point. It will increase again at 10th and 15th.

So, at about four attacks (and, oversimplified) against you for those two hits is where shield gets better. Because it will help against the second hit while Cutting Worlds gave a better percentage of hits into missed, but only against one.

And now it goes back to the question: How often do you and your party let your known squishy full caster take a bunch of attacks against AC in the same round? Sure, the DM is going to force it occasionally, but that's not going to be the default position for every combat.

When there are few attacks, because there will be some natural misses, still favor Cutting Words since it is better at turning a single hit into a miss. In the rarer cases when you expect to be the target of lots of attacks then Shield is better.

Does that corner case happen enough to offset the opportunity cost of taking Shield as a magical secret? That really depends on your party dynamic and DM. So it really varies by table if the cost for Shield is worth it.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

As a low-AC caster I hope you are playing defensively so thy don't always have shots at you. Using cover, ducking fully beihind something, having the rest of the party between you and melee opponents.

I see. This is an interesting idea! So you're saying you could play an arcane caster cautiously, by hanging back, and taking defensive positioning. Have to admit, I've never really considered that. Well, I usually play the party fighter, but if I ever play an arcane caster, I'll give that a try and see how it works.

 

[smbakeresq]

I have only played a few Bards but for me its Valor Bard all the way except in the case where you can be a total caster all the time from a hard front line. Valor bard to me is just more flexible, you clearly are not a front line character but sometimes the front line moves to you or starts behind you.

The armor and shield benefits are passive and always on, so that's a good thing. In play medium armor users get good magic armors, most players either are heavy armor users or Dex types in light armor, you get the rest. Likewise with shields, most martial classes use 2 handed weapons, leaving you and the cleric to fight over the magic shields.

Treantmonk is correct, the 2nd attack of valor bards isn't a thing, however its there and can be used for cleanup (just like the inspiration die example) or to stretch out spells slots some. I play in a game where its 4-6 encounters per short rest as a standard, so work days are longer. I also back this up though, usually starting out as Sorcerer to get CON saves and an attack cantrip or getting one with a spell secret. Spell secrets doesn't give you extra slots, so using a spell secret on a cantrip is an unlimited slot. An attack cantrip will be used more then most other spells you would pick for spell secrets at level 6.

A bard can use a polearm also, so you can use Booming Blade and then force them come after you. In addition, every DM will forget a Bard that has reach and will move out of your reach often to give you an opportunity attack. Using a shield is generally better for you though, especially in your case.

Being proficient in CON saves makes all those concentration spells better, then getting Warcaster means you can keep those spells up in most cases. Warcaster solves the hands free problem for spells, then lets you cast spells as opportunity attacks, which I mentioned before. Dissonant Whispers + Booming blade = good times. Your Warpriest can Command them to flee then you can pound them as they run.

I think in your group that frontline will be on you faster then you think and the AC will help you and the backup attack options will also. You will have to play carefully, but you will have to rotate into the frontline and take a few hits every now and then.

 

[Esker]

Thanks, smbakeresq!

Ok, let me ask you this: So let's suppose that getting medium armor and a shield one way or another is treated as a necessity, at least in the context of my group without much of a solid front line (a perspective I'm increasingly inclined to agree with as this thread has progressed). Would you (a) trade away extra magical secrets and some skills to get it via being a valor bard (let's suppose for the sake of this argument that cutting words and combat inspiration are equally good, to separate that out), (b) delay spell progression by a level to get it from a hexblade dip at some point (and if so, what level?), (c) delay/trade something else (or be a variant human instead of half-elf) in order to take the moderately armored feat? (The first two are of course not mutually exclusive). Let's also suppose for the time being that this decision is not tied to the specific stat spread I chose so that, for example, you could go for an odd DEX score to go with moderately armored, or an even CON score to take warcaster instead of resilient CON as a valor bard.

 

[Yunru]

Note that most of the casters talked about are combat casters. Lore Bards can excel as support casters, especially when paired with Warlock.
Personally I tend to play Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X's over playing a Cleric because I find them superior.

But that is just support, if (almost) pure enabling/debuffing isn't your thing, Valor may hold more for you.

 

[Esker]

I'd be almost pure enabling/debuffing either way (Lore or Valor)... my proposed spell list has almost nothing that isn't in that category one way or another (some things do damage also, like synaptic static and psychic scream, but the main reason to be there is the debuffs). The main question for me is which is the most effective support caster: a valor bard, a lore bard with a dip (such as your character, though I'd go Hexblade over cleric in my case), or a straight lore bard with a feat to get medium armor and a shield.

 

[smbakeresq]

Thanks, smbakeresq!

Ok, let me ask you this: So let's suppose that getting medium armor and a shield one way or another is treated as a necessity, at least in the context of my group without much of a solid front line (a perspective I'm increasingly inclined to agree with as this thread has progressed). Would you (a) trade away extra magical secrets and some skills to get it via being a valor bard (let's suppose for the sake of this argument that cutting words and combat inspiration are equally good, to separate that out), (b) delay spell progression by a level to get it from a hexblade dip at some point (and if so, what level?), (c) delay/trade something else (or be a variant human instead of half-elf) in order to take the moderately armored feat? (The first two are of course not mutually exclusive). Let's also suppose for the time being that this decision is not tied to the specific stat spread I chose so that, for example, you could go for an odd DEX score to go with moderately armored, or an even CON score to take warcaster instead of resilient CON as a valor bard.

(a) Lore Magical Secrets gives you 2 extra spells but no extra spell slots, Armor is an always on bonus. I find that spell choice isn't so much problem, spell slots are. The spells will be third level or below. With an armor bonus you know will be coming you can put possibly emphasize CON more for more HP and better saves. You will need to take Warcaster to buff those saves and avoid having to switch items back and forth for Somatic components.

The extra skills from Lore are fine, but you will get the ones you need anyway being a half elf bard and Jack of All Trades gives you half to the rest. Your team has WIS skills covered (Cleric) INT skills covered (WIZ) and Monk will cover DEX, you just need to fill in. Don't forget JoAT covers initiative also.

The choice is really MC something to get armor and go Lore bard or something to get cantrips and spell versatility and go Valor Bard. I personally like Valor bard and then pick something that gives you good cantrips and useful first level spells. Cantrips use no spells slots, so can be used to stretch spell slots. For a spell secret at 6th level a usable attack cantrip isn't a bad idea, the ability to use it for "free" over and over balances out a 3rd level spell choice limited by slots in a lot of cases.

(b) I usually just start in the other class and then switch to Bard. Its a cheaper xp cost, and its easier for role playing and character building purposes. Your started out in something, realized you didn't like it, and switched to yours life's passion, expressing your talents through performance. For a half elf PC, its just natural to try out a few things as they glide between elf and human societies.

Starting save proficiencies is important as long as its CON for concentration checks on spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Polymorph and Animate Objects.

Delaying spell progression is a deal but not a big deal, you get a lot by MC a Bard.

I have yet to see a decent explanation on how you make a pact with mysterious beings in exchange for supernatural powers that then lets you branch out and do what you want. Seems to me that the mysterious being would put some conditions on that, the hexblade grantor must just like giving out free things.

For the reason above I just start Sorcerer, CON saves, attack cantrips and Shield spells going towards valor bard. Shield is impossible to waste. Shield is like TreantMonk says it is, but its better when you don't depend on it for your life it just there when you need it. It seems like you are organized yourself playing a support PC, that sounds Lawful to me so Divine Soul will get you bless. A monk can make good use of that spell with its attack options as can the war cleric.

(c) wouldn't use a feat. Feats are strictly limited, XP you just earn.

Inspiring leader is the feat you will take right away to get max use out of it, the temp HP to your group of four +2 others who can understand you. Those NPCs your DM has taking hits for you are now NPCs inspired by your words to do so and do so better then ever before. At fourth level when you get it that's 7HP for 6 different people every rest, at 10th level its 14 HP for 6 people, or 88 hp of pre-healing. If variant human I would take this a first level.

If you go Lore Bard and get spells at level 6, then look at Spirit Guardians. Big area auto-damage (half on save,) half speed in that area (no save) means extra damage from behind your cleric and monk or just extra damage if you are on front line. This really pairs well if your monk is Open hand as he can push them into zone or prone them there. TreantMonk though is correct, its hard to use a 3rd level spell slot in combat on something that isn't Hypnotic Pattern.

The valor bard has the same spell selection as a lore bard, they just choose different things. I am finding out that a Sorcerer 1/Valor Bard can be useful in direct combat sometimes as the Bard has access to spells that don't require saves to be effective like Heat Metal, Polymorph, Animate Objects. They do not have staying power (AC or HP) but can rotate in to soak a few hits before being rotated out.