Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
What irks me is the inclusion of whole naturally occuring cultures/peoples/species that are quasi "always evil" as if evil was ingrained into their DNA, making them free to kill on sight for everyone who deem themselves good. Because this greatly reduces individualism and kills off different ways of solving problems. Also, I find the inclusion of alignment into genetics very, very troubling.

For example, even if Goblins have a very different culture and social structure, a canny hero could use these structures to keep the Goblins at bay. Intimidate them. Duel their chieftain/greatest champion to show your superiority. Make the greatest, biggest bomb in existence.

Now I understand how other players might want a different style to their game, especially in terms of relaxing escapism vs. puzzle/problem-solving escapism. I, too, do love a playing good hack'n slay adventure game on my computer. And if I ever get the opportunity to play a PC in a Diablo-esque world, I would most likely slay masses of demons and their cultists and spawns. But this is a very specific setting and not the standard, modern D&D world to me.

Why can't you have both? Why does it have to be either/or and not both/and?

So, people keep using goblins as an example. Let me explain what makes you "people" in my game.

There are seven races and only seven races that are people in my game. The first is the fairy and their kindred. Broadly, this includes all the free will individuals that sprung from the tree of life, and includes the fairy, the genii, the gods themselves and (usually) the natural offspring off those beings such as the giants (though this is a big point of philosophical debate in some circles). Out of respect, The Gods are usually put in a separate category. The fairy are the "eldest and youngest" race, and are basically "little gods". The other six races of "free people" were created as a result of a treaty that ended the God's War, and are the joint creation of many gods and were granted by the gods "free will", something that no other beings have. Note that there is a philosophical dispute in some quarters whether fairies or all fairies really qualify as free people, and in some quarters they are not treated as such, but are classed like the gods generally are by their dominion. And there is a further dispute among the created six over whether all fairies are really "people" because the fairy tree of little gods extends down to things with minds no greater than cats or mice, and even the fairies themselves tend to treat sprites, petals, and atoms more like pets than people.

The six races of free peoples don't even necessarily treat themselves like people at all times. Slavery is common. Murder is common. Racial and ethnic animosity even between the races is common. Not everyone thinks that is a problem. Quite a few are like "survival of the fittest: deal with it". The extreme end of that spectrum is the goblins. The other five created races have a tendency to view the goblins as "not people". The reason for this is that one of the fundamental things that is supposed to be true about free peoples is that they can worship any gods that they please. But the goblins pretty much worship just one family of deities with a definite "survival of the fittest" outlook. Everyone agrees that at one time goblins were people, but some people are like "They aren't people anymore." And it's not a trivial dispute, because everyone agrees that present day goblins don't look like goblins used to look like (although no one really remembers what they used to look like). The goblins as a people engage in selective breeding and perhaps magical manipulation of themselves. They're changed, both physically and many believe in demeanor. They are convinced that they are inherently superior to all other races, and will one day wipe the other ones out. They long ago even tried to do that very thing. So opinions vary by region. Some regions treat them as people and they're even reasonably integrated into normal life, albeit often as second class citizens. Other regions they are treated as less than animals, and as basically monsters. As a campaign level secret, I don't casually answer this question for players, but I think it is a really big hint what I think that goblins are PC race and that non-people are not.

In practice, goblins have been treated as people by my players and not as monsters. The PC's have a goblin henchmen. Twos PC were in fact hobgoblins. They've encountered goblins in the wilderness and had complex interactions with them, and they've faced off against a tribe of goblins as the bad guys they have to kill. But also probably the greatest act of mercy they ever did was when the PC's agreed to let a hobgoblin mercenary go with the promise that if he'd cooperate and the make himself scarce, they'd not kill him. Considering how brutal they are normally to prisoners, this is a big deal. They probably treated him better than they have any human.

There are a couple of things to note about the above. Since freedom is ideologically based in most people's minds on worshiping gods freely, the non-religious and monotheists are in some areas treated as non-people, or at least really weird. So there is ideological persecution going on as well, and it's not obvious sometimes whose right or wrong because many of those religious minorities are weird and dangerous.

But there are things that are expressly not people as well, and everyone agrees about it. It's not even a point of philosophical debate. On Kyrnn, Minotaurs are people. On Korrel, Minotaurs are decidedly not people. They are actually basically bodily extensions of a fiend lord, and they are incapable of acting in any fashion other than to express his will. The same is true of Gnolls and Kobolds and Dragons. They literally do not have free will. They can't be any alignment that is contrary to their creator. They are sentient and express the willfulness of their creator, and squabble with each other and so forth, but they are not people. If you venerate their creator you still might respect them as representatives of their creator, but if you do it won't be on the ideological basis of all people having been created with certain inherent rights and dignities, because they literally don't have those dignities and don't share the same creation. So you might find a race of not people that aren't evil, and you might respect them on the basis of who created them - the Phanaton were created by Dianciana the Flower Goddess for example - but they don't qualify as "free people" anymore.

Where this gets really complicated for the philosophers and cultures of Korrel is hybrids. What do you do with someone who has complex parentage? For example, Sorcerers are magical precisely because they have some sort of heritage other than what is typical of the free peoples. Fey or divine or genii parentage that might be mostly ok, but what about dragon? What about something weird and unusual like being pulled as a baby from the body of a newly undead being or worse fiendish parentage (or depending on your perspective celestial parentage)? What if your granddad was a Slaad, or your father was a Modron? Are you still people? In some areas, if they find out you are a sorcerer they will for a multitude of reasons just burn you at the stake. In other areas, they'll take more of a "judge them by the content of their character" stand.

What is important about this is I am not intending any direct commentary on the real world. There is actually vastly more diversity in this than in the real world. Real world racial and ethnic problems are comparatively trivial, and I'm not really interested in exploring them in my play. What I am interested in exploring is the big picture of that, which I think expresses itself in a very intimate way - how do two beings relate to each other. What I'm asking is not for an allegory of the real world, but for the players to deal with complexity including problems that don't exist in the real world. I'm much more interested how we treat anyone that is different than us for any reason than I am in something I consider a comparatively trivial problem like how we treat someone who looks very slightly different (amazingly slightly different) than us. Yes, I know in the real world people are hung up on that and it's been and continues to be a huge problem, but I consider it just one special case with a pretty obvious answer and not the be all end all of morality.
 
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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I always ran my games where Orcs were evil because they were created by Grummish One-Eye that way. It is pure genetics. Grummish is not big on free will so they were not created with it, but there are genetic anomalies every now and then but very rare.
 


Lylandra

Adventurer
Why? Modern science is continually trying to prove that genes play a role in humankind's gender preferences and various personality traits.

And modern science is also continually trying to prove that culture, peers and parents play a role in developing personality traits, mindsets and behaviour patterns. (Gender preferences are a different kind of animal and I wouldn't put them into the equation when discussing morals as it is really irrelevant here)

Influencing or playing a role is one thing. Being quasi the only deterministic factor on morale is the other. "being born evil" is simply a no-go for me when it comes to humanoid creatures. You can make some mortal peoples avatars or puppets of gods, sure. But they would surely lose the "humanoid" status for me and become "godlings" or "outsiders".
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Hopefully, like Baron Munchaussen and Puppetland, we'll get to see an expanded version of Powerkill that addresses contemporary culture as well. I think it is overdue.

I'll agree -- I'd definitely be curious to see how Tynes reacts to the changes in the hobby over the past two decades since his original Power Kill essay.

Game design has in many ways evolved beyond the simpler 'kill and get XP' systems of gaming's past; as noted by other posters in this thread, a number of current RPGs reward 'defeating' rather than killing foes, which leaves open a variety of different scenarios whereby the enemy doesn't have to be killed to be worth XP. (Even in my own D&D games, I found the degree of 'chasing down and murdering every last monster in the combat' dropped significantly once I made it plain that the PCs would still get full XP for surrendering/fleeing opponents. Though one enterprising munchkin considered releasing a surrendered opponent, then immediately engaging him again to force another surrender and get additional XP...)

Then there are games like the modern Delta Green, now a stand-alone system that borrows heavily from BRP rather than a BRP-based game itself. The Sanity system in Delta Green explicitly contains a potential Sanity cost for killing other human beings, even in self-defense, with a greater cost for killing those who aren't a threat or who are otherwise helpless -- and it also provides a mechanic for becoming 'adapted to violence' which significantly reduces or even eliminates those costs, leaving open the question of how much of a monster you are willing to become to pursue your goals of protecting humanity from the uncanny.

One of Tynes's key points from the Power Kill essay is of particular interest in this sense:

John Tynes said:
The actions taken by characters in (traditional RPGs) would almost be completely unacceptable in the real world; it is only the shoddy trappings of genre conventions that allow RPG players to consider their stories "heroic" or "dramatic"....Layers of drama and symbolism aside, is there not something wrong with a storytelling hobby that glorifies criminal behavior as the primary protagonistic component? What is the true source of our enjoyment of this hobby? Is it the portrayal of an alternate personality? Is it the exploration of a given set of genre conventions? Or is it the illicit thrill of engaging in criminal behavior, sanctified with a safe trapping?

Despite the presence of games that explicitly model the kind of 'trapping' Tynes mentions here (the Leverage RPG and Blades in the Dark immediately come to mind), there are still plenty of games that unwittingly foster this kind of illicit thrill -- heck, both the Pathfinder Society and the factions of the D&D Adventurers League could easily be envisioned as criminal organizations for which PCs labor to advance their goals in the greater world (and one of the factions in AL is explicitly an organization of criminals -- the Zhentarim).

Many game designers and game designs have come a long way here, though by no means all of them. Many gamers, not so much.

--
Pauper
 



Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
What irks me is the inclusion of whole naturally occuring cultures/peoples/species that are quasi "always evil" as if evil was ingrained into their DNA, making them free to kill on sight for everyone who deem themselves good. Because this greatly reduces individualism and kills off different ways of solving problems. Also, I find the inclusion of alignment into genetics very, very troubling.

Isn't it possible you find it troubling because you're anthropomorphizing an alien creature? We don't live in a world where Gods walk on the planet and literally create new creatures from magic. Their genetics, along with much of their physics, literally doesn't work like ours does. We humans are not born with an alignment - but a fantasy setting can posit, as part of the setting assumptions, that some alien creatures are born with an alignment. Much like they're born with magic.

Allowing for that setting doesn't speak to anything troubling about our own real world and real world genetics - nor is it intended to. It's not an allegory for our world.

Now I am all for scenarios that allow for alternative ways to resolve the challenge, like you mention.

But there are scenarios where that's not an option. When the orcs are raiding an innocent village under the authority of one-eyed Gruumsh cleric taskmasters, raping and pillaging and burning in the name of their deity, where challenging their chief or building the biggest bomb or tricking them or using diplomacy may not be an option that can work in time to save the people being slaughtered. Sometimes, the only realistic option is fighting them, if you want to save innocent lives.

And I don't agree with the claim that scenario is an inherent problem with fantasy gaming. That is a legitimate scenario, along with ones that don't have to be resolved that way.
 
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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Maybe. Sometimes. If you want that to be a part of your game world, then go ahead, but it isn't obligatory.

Nothing is obligatory but in the first example of D&D gaming I ever read in the Elmore Box set there was an evil human magic user who really needed killing for what he did to Aleena.

Aleeeeeeeeeeeenaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! *screams at the sky* :(
 

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