Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
I'm using the word timing because that's what the bonus action rule uses.

Again, JEC has made it clear that some bonus actions follow an "if X then Y" model, and X must happen before you get the bonus action Y, and that this is what the words above in bold mean in the context of the bonus action rules. Or, in other words, there are two classes of bonus actions.

1) The bonus action itself has some kind of "if X then Y" trigger, and X must happen before you can do Y.
2) You just have the bonus action, and can do it any time you like on your turn.

If you don't think "timing" is the correct word to use to describe the first case, fair enough.

Right, I believe the bonus action rule about "unless the bonus action's timing is specified" doesn't apply to shield master. I believe you can choose when to use the shield master bonus action shove during your turn. However, I don't believe you even have the shield master bonus action to use before you take the attack action because of the "if you take the attack action then you can bonus action shove" (paraphrased) coupled with another less familiar rule I quote below.

See the difference in my construction? Nearly the same outcome but the way I get there is much different. I avoid timing issues altogether. The way I can say shield master doesn't specify timing and still get out of saying shield master can be used before the attack action as the rule you cited would seem to imply is by remembering another rule below:

You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.

I view JC's tweets about the meaning of the "if then" clause in shield master more as a reference to the rule above than as a ruling about timing.

Yunru · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
There's not really much to argue about, JEC has make it clear that Shield Master uses the "if A then B" timing rules on many occasions.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/995112448477749248

That is, you don't have the Shield Master shove bonus action until you've taken the Attack action.

None of which is official, and didn't make it into any of the official materials like Eratta or SA Compendium.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Yunru said:
None of which is official, and didn't make it into any of the official materials like Eratta or SA Compendium.

You must have some sage advice that the rest of us don't. Cause there is sage advice about shield master.

Yunru · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
You must have some sage advice that the rest of us don't. Cause there is sage advice about shield master.

But there's no Sage Advice on "take an action" meaning the action has to be finished. Not for bonus actions like JC originally references, not for Shield Master.

Ristamar · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Sure. So when it comes to whether you can take a bonus action like misty step between attacks granted by the extra attack action, it seems to me that given the larger context of action and movement rules that allowing for misty step and other bonus actions between attacks is not a big leap to make.

True, and I'm not disputing that. The bonus action timing intent has been a mess, though it's been clarified repeatedly at this point (and people can take it or leave it).

My contention was with the start and end of an action as a game unit being hard to discern. It's not. It's usually fairly obvious, IMO.

5ekyu · Feb 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
You don't seem to be understanding the part you keep calling out. Here is an example of a bonus action with no timing specified. "In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action." Here is another example of no timing specified. "Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each o f your turns in combat." Now, here is an example of a bonus action with the timing specified. "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." It specifies that you have to actually take the attack action, not just declare that an attack action will be taken.

Since on this thread I have commented multiple times on the shield master timing etc the idea that you think I dont understand that it is a timing specified is funny.

Not sure if you really dont know or are just spinning.

Doesnt matter either way.

5ekyu · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
I think it's actually pretty simple, and most actions are simply instantaneous.

Attack - JEC says it ends when you've taken all your attacks.
Cast a Spell - Many/most of these are instantaneous. For example, Scorching Ray has a duration of "instantaneous" despite it having 3 or more rays that you roll to hit for individually.
Dash - Instantaneous. You take this action, and your speed doubles.
Disengage - Instantaneous. You take this action, and movement no longer provokes OAs.
Dodge - Instantaneous. You take this action, and all attacks against you have disadvantage.
Help - Open for debate.
Hide - Instantaneous.
Ready - Instantaneous.
Search - Open for debate, I'd argue not instantaneous.
Use an Object - Open for debate, probably not instantaneous.

There's no need to argue about breaking up a Dash, Disengage or Dodge action for example, because the action is instantaneous and the effects last for the duration. While those effects are in play, you can do other things you have access to, such as bonus actions or movement.

Re the bit about disengage and dash, even they get drawn into indivisible phantom tho.

My fighter rogue with cunning and extra attacks has two enemies- a weakened warrior and mage keeping hold person going on allies.

Rogue has two shortswords.

Rogue moves 15' to the warrior strikes (attack action first swing) hoping to drop the injured foe cuz he needs to hit the mage. Misses.

Now he wants to use cunning action to disengage from the warrior safely moving 15' around and away to strike the mage with his remaining extra attack. (If he had hit, no disengage needed, he could have gotten two strikes on the mage with his bonus action twf. )

I have never seen a GM who said "no, you cannot use your bonus action disengage because you have started an attack action and attack actions are indivisible by some bonus actions." Doubt I would see anyone object to it if the BA was cast Misty Step either

The GMs I have seen would be saying "smart, ok, so move and now make your..."

But some here seem to know that for bonus actions without certain keywords ( that the no timing specified bonus actions lack by default) the bonus action cannot be taken in between those strikes. They *know* that it's just *obvious* that bonus actions without timing specifies cannot be taken between attacks cuz "You choose when..." does not mean "You choose when... " seemingly like how "any time" does not mean "any time".

5ekyu · Feb 16, 2019

Ristamar said:
True, and I'm not disputing that. The bonus action timing intent has been a mess, though it's been clarified repeatedly at this point (and people can take it or leave it).

My contention was with the start and end of an action as a game unit being hard to discern. It's not. It's usually fairly obvious, IMO.

Yeah, me too.

Shield Master is what it is and after all those old tweets and tweet-versals they clarified in the latest combo of errata and sage compendium...

1 Shield master requires the attack action, not the intent of the attack action.
2 All previous and future tweets are unofficial - only sage advice compendium and actual rules are official.

They chose to not put indivisible actions into either of those sources with the errata and compendium.

They even chose to officially be to a GM to let timing specific bonus action reverse the order - EK cantrip melee attack for example.

None of which leads to the indivisible action kerfuffle still being a thing, to me.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Yunru said:
But there's no Sage Advice on "take an action" meaning the action has to be finished. Not for bonus actions like JC originally references, not for Shield Master.

Generally speaking it's not said that you have taken a drink, taken a turn, taken a college course etc until you have completed whatever it is that you are taking.

Yunru · Feb 16, 2019

Ignore this, stupid wikis removing vital wording.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Yunru

Banned

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Yunru

Banned

Ristamar

Adventurer

5ekyu

Hero

5ekyu

Hero

5ekyu

Hero

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Yunru

Banned

Similar Threads

Related Articles