Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Right you can move before and after your action. Now please show me where the rules state when any action ends.

You see the point is that if you don't actually know when an action ends then you can't determine if you are still allowed to move on your turn.

I'm not claiming there isn't an end to an action. I'm claiming the rules leave that end undefined.

I think it's actually pretty simple, and most actions are simply instantaneous.

Attack - JEC says it ends when you've taken all your attacks.
Cast a Spell - Many/most of these are instantaneous. For example, Scorching Ray has a duration of "instantaneous" despite it having 3 or more rays that you roll to hit for individually.
Dash - Instantaneous. You take this action, and your speed doubles.
Disengage - Instantaneous. You take this action, and movement no longer provokes OAs.
Dodge - Instantaneous. You take this action, and all attacks against you have disadvantage.
Help - Open for debate.
Hide - Instantaneous.
Ready - Instantaneous.
Search - Open for debate, I'd argue not instantaneous.
Use an Object - Open for debate, probably not instantaneous.

There's no need to argue about breaking up a Dash, Disengage or Dodge action for example, because the action is instantaneous and the effects last for the duration. While those effects are in play, you can do other things you have access to, such as bonus actions or movement.

Ristamar · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I tend to agree. Though take a close look at the dodge action. Does it's text lead to a clear logical inference about when the action ends?

As a stand alone passage, no, probably not. Within the larger context of all the action and movement rules, I don't think it's a big leap to make.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Ristamar said:
As a stand alone passage, no, probably not. Within the larger context of all the action and movement rules, I don't think it's a big leap to make.

Sure. So when it comes to whether you can take a bonus action like misty step between attacks granted by the extra attack action, it seems to me that given the larger context of action and movement rules that allowing for misty step and other bonus actions between attacks is not a big leap to make.

In fact until JC changed his mind not a single person in all of 5e ever beleived bonus actions were not usable between attacks granted by extra attack.

Maxperson · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
The conditional phrase "if you take the attack action then.." doesn't set forth a a timing IMO. It simply sets a condition such that without that condition being met you don't have a bonus action you are able to take.

That would be called timing. You can take it at such time as the condition is met.

Now we as humans have logic and reasoning. We know that if a condition must be met in order to do something that I can define a specific moment in time called X such that before X you didn't have a bonus action you were able to take and such that after X you have a bonus action you are able to take.

I think you refer to this idea of having the times you are able to do something restricted as timing because there's a time period before moment X you can't do something and a time period after moment X that you can do something. I don't think that's the best definition of timing.

As has been noted, it's not the clearest written timing, but it does specify a time frame for which the bonus action can be taken. In 5e there are two condition under which you can take a bonus action. At any time, and with defined timing. It's the dichotomy that the game sets forth. If not A, then B.

I think timing is best defined as having to do something at a specific moment X. You don't do it before or after, you do it at exactly the moment X. Shield Master doesn't require timing like this. However, just because it doesn't require you perform the bonus action shove at a specific time, that doesn't mean it doesn't restrict the available times you are able to take it.

I agree that would be better defined timing. Shield Master does include timing, though. It's definitely not an "any time" bonus action, which by the rules makes it timed. It just has a time range. That range being when you take the attack action, which prevents you from taking it before the attack action is taken.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
That would be called timing. You can take it at such time as the condition is met.

As has been noted, it's not the clearest written timing, but it does specify a time frame for which the bonus action can be taken. In 5e there are two condition under which you can take a bonus action. At any time, and with defined timing. It's the dichotomy that the game sets forth. If not A, then B.

I agree that would be better defined timing. Shield Master does include timing, though. It's definitely not an "any time" bonus action, which by the rules makes it timed. It just has a time range. That range being when you take the attack action, which prevents you from taking it before the attack action is taken.

Sigh, Advice given and advice rejected. Have fun arguing about the meaning of timing. I won't join you down that pointless rabbit hole.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
I think it's actually pretty simple, and most actions are simply instantaneous.

Attack - JEC says it ends when you've taken all your attacks.
Cast a Spell - Many/most of these are instantaneous. For example, Scorching Ray has a duration of "instantaneous" despite it having 3 or more rays that you roll to hit for individually.
Dash - Instantaneous. You take this action, and your speed doubles.
Disengage - Instantaneous. You take this action, and movement no longer provokes OAs.
Dodge - Instantaneous. You take this action, and all attacks against you have disadvantage.
Help - Open for debate.
Hide - Instantaneous.
Ready - Instantaneous.
Search - Open for debate, I'd argue not instantaneous.
Use an Object - Open for debate, probably not instantaneous.

There's no need to argue about breaking up a Dash, Disengage or Dodge action for example, because the action is instantaneous and the effects last for the duration. While those effects are in play, you can do other things you have access to, such as bonus actions or movement.

The point is that the rules don't make those explicit claims.

Asgorath · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Sigh, Advice given and advice rejected. Have fun arguing about the meaning of timing. I won't join you down that pointless rabbit hole.

There's not really much to argue about, JEC has make it clear that Shield Master uses the "if A then B" timing rules on many occasions.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/995112448477749248

That is, you don't have the Shield Master shove bonus action until you've taken the Attack action.

Asgorath · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
The point is that the rules don't make those explicit claims.

Why does it need to?

Disengage
If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn.

I don't understand how anyone could read that and conclude that the action doesn't take effect immediately, and thus the action itself is instantaneous. Same can be said for Dash and Dodge, at the very least.

FrogReaver · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
There's not really much to argue about, JEC has make it clear that Shield Master uses the "if A then B" timing rules on many occasions.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/995112448477749248

That is, you don't have the Shield Master shove bonus action until you've taken the Attack action.

I totally agree with the bolded. In fact I said the exact same thing in my post. But he bolded is not an example of timing IMO. Timing is when you do something at moment X. Shield Master doesn't require you do anything at moment X.

When you precisely define your terms and avoid contentious terms most of the issues magically go away, or at least if they don't we can get to the real nuts and bolts of the issues instead of arguing about pointless stuff like what timing means. Or have 5 different meanings of timing and everyone answering everyone elses posts as if they were all using the same definition.

Asgorath · Feb 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I totally agree with the bolded. In fact I said the exact same thing in my post. But he bolded is not an example of timing IMO. Timing is when you do something at moment X. Shield Master doesn't require you do anything at moment X.

When you precisely define your terms and avoid contentious terms most of the issues magically go away, or at least if they don't we can get to the real nuts and bolts of the issues instead of arguing about pointless stuff like what timing means. Or have 5 different meanings of timing and everyone answering everyone elses posts as if they were all using the same definition.

I'm using the word timing because that's what the bonus action rule uses.

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Again, JEC has made it clear that some bonus actions follow an "if X then Y" model, and X must happen before you get the bonus action Y, and that this is what the words above in bold mean in the context of the bonus action rules. Or, in other words, there are two classes of bonus actions.

1) The bonus action itself has some kind of "if X then Y" trigger, and X must happen before you can do Y.
2) You just have the bonus action, and can do it any time you like on your turn.

If you don't think "timing" is the correct word to use to describe the first case, fair enough.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath

Explorer

Ristamar

Adventurer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Asgorath

Explorer

Asgorath

Explorer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Asgorath

Explorer

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