What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

[Dannyalcatraz]

This thread is starting to remind me of what was, for me, one of the most bizarre aspects of the edition wars threads.

Now maybe it's just because I don't play any video or computer games, and never have, but the resemblances of 4e mechanics to WoW-ish mechanics (as I understand them) seem pretty superficial. Whereas the resemlbance of 4e mechanics to indie RPG mechanics strikes me as obvious and deliberate. What surprises me about the edition wars, then, is that we get all these debates about whether or not 4e is videogamey, but comparatively little coherent discussion of the sorts of play (other than the tactical miniatures wargame stuff) that an indie-inspired edition of D&D might support.

You've hit it right on the head- 4Ed doesn't remind you of video games because you don't play video games.

For you, the WoWish mechanics seem superficial. To the guys in my group who routinely play- or program- MMORPGs, those aspects leapt out at them within the first half-hour.

Me? I don't play MMORPGs at all, so I didn't make that connection. Instead, I was reminded of the coin-op/console combat games I play.

But- to those of you who care- would specific definitions for me or my buddies' objections help you refute these perceptions? Nope.

As for the resonance that 4Ed has with indie games and what kind of play it may inspire...what can I say?

Its a valid comparison, but who will participate in a meaningful way?

Indie games are a growing and innovative branch of the hobby, but its still a minority. I personally don't know any gamers who play indie games. The few I own are actually just playtest editions.

I mean...I bet that if you actually started a thread you'd get some nibbles. Maybe even nibbles by some of the "big fish"- game designers like Mouseferatu- and fellow indie enthusiasts. Maybe you'll even get a hot thread going.

But the bulk of us? We might read it and merely lurk.

 

[Hairfoot]

And in each one of those threads, we had to ask "What do you mean, videogamey? What does that even mean?" and the answers were always different, so we'd keep having to ask again the next time. But there was a general theme in the definitions.

Can you link to anything to back that up?

I've followed the edition wars quite closely, and to me it's always seemed to pan out the same way as the current "What does Videogamey mean to you?" thread: one group of people declaring "videogamey" is a meaningless, offhand insult, and another group giving considered, diverse and reasoned definitions.

This is actually becoming a duplicate thread, FWIW.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This thread is starting to remind me of what was, for me, one of the most bizarre aspects of the edition wars threads.

Now maybe it's just because I don't play any video or computer games, and never have, but the resemblances of 4e mechanics to WoW-ish mechanics (as I understand them) seem pretty superficial. Whereas the resemlbance of 4e mechanics to indie RPG mechanics strikes me as obvious and deliberate. What surprises me about the edition wars, then, is that we get all these debates about whether or not 4e is videogamey, but comparatively little coherent discussion of the sorts of play (other than the tactical miniatures wargame stuff) that an indie-inspired edition of D&D might support.

How would you call that? Indiey? Indy? Indiana?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Can you link to anything to back that up?

Nope, I can't search. Plus, there were about 100 threads a day popping up for the first month after 4e was released. But at the very beginning the average thread went:

"The problem with 4e is that it reminds me of a video game."
"What do you mean?"
"I don't know, it just is."
"Well that's not helpful."
"Well...it's like the powers seem to be designed for a computer rather than a person. Like we can't figure out anything more complicated and the game has been dumbed down."
"I wouldn't say it's been dumbed down. It's just different. I like it better."
"No. WOTC is treating us like idiots. I'm not 14. I don't need to have everything spelled out for me like I'm a child. I play video games when I want to be kind of mindless. I play RPGs when I want to expand my mind. 4e is more like a video game."

And...repeat. Likely with the next thread comparing 4e to WoW and how marking was a mindless mechanic designed for video games because it was easier for kids to understand and that's why it was put into 4e.

There was a lot of hateful things thrown around. It's gotten better since then. I actually got so sick of it that I left the message boards for about 6 months because I couldn't stand reading anymore. And any thread about 4e would immediately be hijacked.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"The problem with 4e is that it reminds me of a video game."
"What do you mean?"
"I don't know, it just is."
"Well that's not helpful."
"Well...it's like the powers seem to be designed for a computer rather than a person. Like we can't figure out anything more complicated and the game has been dumbed down."
"I wouldn't say it's been dumbed down. It's just different. I like it better."
"No. WOTC is treating us like idiots. I'm not 14. I don't need to have everything spelled out for me like I'm a child. I play video games when I want to be kind of mindless. I play RPGs when I want to expand my mind. 4e is more like a video game."

Granted, terminology like "dumbed down"* and "idiots" and the like are charged, but did the greater specificity of that person help any? I'd say no- it introduced a lot of language into the discussion simply LOADED with negativity.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it isn't "videogamey" that was the negative term, but the language that came out when greater specificity was elicited.

And being a human being, when that term came up again, your mind made the connection from the previous thread that someone was using this as a code for "dumbed down" etc.

...but if you look back in the recent past- especially this thread and the "Videogamey" thread that are currently active- I don't think you'll see anyone using loaded language in their definitions of the term. They've been pretty clinical and civil. All while being negative and critical of the game.

So, what term or phrase would you suggest to replace "videogamey" as shorthand for "something that reminds me of video games" and/or lengthy explanations in order to fend off heated exchanges?

* To look at this one further, consider if the poster had said "The game seems oversimplified to me" when calling the game videogamey: its less charged, but not really less critical of the game. Would "videogamey" still be as negative to you?

 

[Hairfoot]

Nope, I can't search. Plus, there were about 100 threads a day popping up for the first month after 4e was released. But at the very beginning the average thread went:...

Your memory is very different to mine. Certainly, there was a lot of animosity toward 4E, but I think a lot of it is now being written off as meaningless spite when there was, in fact, a great deal of considered, informed and accurate criticism posted.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Can you link to anything to back that up?

I've followed the edition wars quite closely, and to me it's always seemed to pan out the same way as the current "What does Videogamey mean to you?" thread: one group of people declaring "videogamey" is a meaningless, offhand insult, and another group giving considered, diverse and reasoned definitions.

This is actually becoming a duplicate thread, FWIW.

Correction: Another group giving diverse, reasoned, and inherently contradictory reasons. And it is the contradictions between the group giving contradictory reasons that leads to it being written off as a criticism.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Your memory is very different to mine. Certainly, there was a lot of animosity toward 4E, but I think a lot of it is now being written off as meaningless spite when there was, in fact, a great deal of considered, informed and accurate criticism posted.

I saw the same couple of arguments thrown out over and over again just stated in different ways. I posted a list in the other thread on this issue. Since I was in the unique position of having ran 4e games months before everyone else saw the rules, I was on the message boards day one trying to respond to people's concerns.

But I got very frustrated because the concerns were (mostly) things that there was no response to. How do you respond to "this game has been dumbed down" other than being offended by it. What is the definition of "dumbed down" other than "changed in a way I don't like". Same thing with videogamey. You can't respond to that. "This game is too videogamey" "Umm...which one? A golf game? A racing game? I like racing games. Is it like Everquest? How is that a bad thing? It used to be my favorite game because it was so much like D&D."

Meanwhile all of the people posting these things were saying "What? I'm being perfectly reasonable and informed in my opinion. Everything about 4e is exactly like a video game. And I like video games but not 4e. What is there not to understand?"

 

[BryonD]

But I got very frustrated because the concerns were (mostly) things that there was no response to.

I'll stick with Hairfoot. I think your "mostly" claim is not at all accurate.

And to offer a mirror observation, when I offered concern after concern before 4E was released I was constantly blown off as simply making assumptions without seeing the whole game in context. In the last few months before release that became the mantra for any critical comment. It didn't actually address the complaint, it just stood in for "you are wrong, but I can't explain how".

Then the game came out and the "full context" didn't change anything.

If someone has a complaint and you truly can't find a response to it, then don't respond. Or just say, sorry, clearly WotC didn't make a game that appeals to whatever it is you find fun.

But we get people saying "videogamey" means "you don't understand 4e".
"Videogamey" means "you are closed minded and just won't accept a new edition".
And so on...

You claim "100 threads a day" with people saying things like "I don't know, it just is." I completely dispute your claim that this is remotely an accurate representation. It may very well be true that you could find 100s of thread with that type of statement in them. But, if you did, 90%+ of those threads would *also* include people making cogent arguments. (And threads more than 3 posts long would be more like 100%).

And there is a parallel here.
The claim that "videogamey" means someone doesn't understand is just as counter-productive as "4e sucks but I don't have any reason why". You get people with chips on their shoulder on both sides.
Talk to people who do make points.

 

[Hairfoot]

Correction: Another group giving diverse, reasoned, and inherently contradictory reasons. And it is the contradictions between the group giving contradictory reasons that leads to it being written off as a criticism.

In what way were they contradictory? Can you link to examples?

A dozen people may make separate comparisons with video games as criticism, but it doesn't follow that any number of those criticisms are contradictory. They may be a dozen valid and relevant points.