d6 the future of d20?

[woodelf]

In another instance, Astrogation (the skill used to navigate through space in Star Wars) was an important skill for all star pilots, but it had no explanation for how the roll was supposed to be resolved. How the heck is the GM supposed to know what an easy, moderate, or difficult astrogation check is? Furthermore, even if they had included apropriate difficulties, there was no explanation of what failure looked like. If I screw up my Astrogation roll, do I just not jump to hyperspace? Do I jump the wrong place? Do I get stuck in an extradimensional abyss? All of this is up the GM. As I said before--great for guys and gals who hate to be restricted, but a pain for people who want to tell a story, and not make up rules.

Speaking as someone who wants "to tell a story, not make up rules," whether they exist or not is irrelevant to this stance. If that's what y iwant to do, i will, and the presence or absence of rules has no impact on this. One only makes up rules if one *does* want to. There are no RPG police forcing you to do so, just because they are absent from the written game. I'm not saying that your stance is bad, just pointing out that it doesn't stem from "wanting to tell a story". Or, conversely, that the "need" to make rules, has pretty much nothing to do with their absence from the published ruleset, and everything to do with the GM's desire to have rules.

 

[Trollpoopy]

D6 is easily customizable to a character concept, since there are no classes or levels. Is very quick and easy to learn. The one downside is the Bucket o' Dice syndrome... Tallying up 12d6 for every skill check or attack roll can really bog down gameplay.

It's fun, but personally I preferred the d10 system used for the old 7th Sea game. It's similar to the d6 system, except you use d10's, and you've got two numbers... the number of dice you roll, and the number you get to keep to tally up for the check.

D6 system isnt that bad, you can used the D6 prime system rules that simplifies they tally part by counting successes and fails, its a quick and easy plugin.

Its known as D6 Prime/D6 legend

I like the d6 system more than D20 myself. I cant stand the cookie cutter character creation of the D20 system, Im actually just sick of character class and having to have a 7dice set. If youre looking for something different and a "unique" character, check out WEG D6.

Its still all a matter of preference

 

[Steel_Wind]

Jedi in D6 were also in an odd position. For a very long time, a Jedi really couldn't do a whole lot with their powers, because Control Sense and Alter were attributes and improving them was expensive.

The d20 system makes Jedi more powerful from the beginning with all the force skills that can be used untrained.

WEG's SWd6 system was really designed for a more free-flowing GM/player style, and with the right GM it was ideal for Star Wars, and combat went pretty fast. Heck, with SWd6, there were a number of points in the rulebook where the rules said "don't let this bog down, keep the action moving; if you don't know off the top of your head what the target number is, make something up and keep going."

SWd20 is much more "tactical" with all the options coded into the rules, and it doesn't really encourage creative skill uses, IMO, because of the number of important skills that can't be used untrained. It also lends itself more to "rules lawyering" which puts the GM and player into an adversarial relationship. For SWd20, you need a good GM *and* a good group of players. Otherwise, it ends up feeling like a D&D session, only with blasters and lightsabers instead of crossbows and bastard swords.

I would like to point out that eveything in this post is a fair comment on the OCR (Original Core Rules) and the RCR (Revised Core Rules) versions of Star Wars -- the 3.xx versions of WotC's Star Wars RPG.

These comments are completely inapplicable to Star Wars: Saga Edition which radically changed the WotC SW RPG. The result was the Ennie award winning game which -- of the five versions of a Star Wars RPG released to date in the past 25 years or so -- is imo, easily the best.

If you played the Star Wars 3.xx versions based on D20 -- you owe it to yourself to play the Saga Edition of the game. You will be AMAZED at the difference in the feel of the game and how it plays.

It feels like Star Wars pretty much from the first level onwards.

 

[pawsplay]

I'll be honest, if I still had a copy of Saga lying around, I would not even consider playing it as long as I had other options. It was poorly balanced, lacked a core design philosophy, and produced many unwanted results. For instance, Jedi would became paste if they put on a helmet and vest, since 95% of Jedi lack the all important Armored Defense Talent, causing their defense score to plummet. Virtually every Force power used to attack was errata'd at some point. Darth Vader is incapable of grabbing someone's neck and choking them to death, under Saga rules.

Saga managed to accomplish one impressive thing: It actually made me somewhat regret getting rid of my RCR materials. The RCR had a lot going for it, and it would have been easier to houserule that than to get the Saga system to do virtually anything I wanted it to.

Its flaw in consideration, the D6 Second Edition Revised is the best Star Wars RPG. It's more complete than first edition, but much slimmed down and improved from the awkward second edition. In terms of the d20 version, the first edition was charming but rather too flawed in numerous respects. The OCR is playable right out of the box; I ran a campaign to 12th level without problem! Eventually, it received some much-needed errata, and I was never quite happy with how the VP/WP thing played out in practice, but it was a solid game.

D6 characters, even as a beginners, are very capable. The game is fluid and versatile, and was really splended for a certain way of playing Star Wars. These days, I am looking toward a GURPS or Hero conversion, though it involves a good deal of conversion work.

 

[Ainamacar]

Epic thread necromancy is epic. I'm glad though, because it made me aware of the existence of Over the Edge, which looks rather interesting.

 

[Wik]

I think it's a good topic to bring up now, though, considering that d6 is now COMPLETELY open due to WEG going belly-up.

Also, d6 is a flawed system, but it's amazingly fun. In fact, our group needs a pick up game for the next month or so, and it was unanimously voted that d6 be such a pick-up game... it is very much loved among my group, because of just how quickly it runs while at the same time meshing better with my group than Savage Worlds.

Buckets o' dice can be a problem, but there's an easy fix - PCs only ever roll five dice, with all dice in excess of 5 being averaged. It's a good fix, and it makes die rolls relatively fast - doing so makes the game run probably twice as quickly as later versions of D&D, in personal experience.

A word of advice, though: trim down the character generation rules. There's a lot of info there, and it's altogether probable that if youhave four players creating characters, it will result in 4 different PCs of entirely different power levels (One "normal guy", one super hero of decent strength, one completely tweaked power gamed character, and one guy who makes the completely tweaked PC look pathetic and weak).

When I set it up, I actually pregen a bunch of classes, and then have the players pick a "template" and customize it by allocating skills, much like the original SWd6 setting did. It's doubly effective because it gives the players an idea of the setting you're shooting for.

 

[Steel_Wind]

For instance, Jedi would became paste if they put on a helmet and vest, since 95% of Jedi lack the all important Armored Defense Talent, causing their defense score to plummet.

Uhm, no. Actually, their Ref Def would go up by two - same as anybody else.

But at they lack the feat to maneuver in it, their attacks go down by two as do a few other skills. Jedi are the only base class that does not get Armor Proficiency (Light) as a potenitial bonus feat. They can take that feat at third level if they so choose - or multiclass at 2nd and take it then.

Of course, their Ref Def at 2nd level is equal to the bonus a blast vest and helmet confers on non-heroic classes anyways -- so I'm not sure why they would want to wear it.

When it comes to armor -- like weapon proficiencies -- it's about game balance. Virtually every Jedi begins the game by choosing the Deflect talent. Nobody else can do that. When it comes to what armor MEANS in the game (not getting hit), the first level Jedi have everybody in the game beat from the get go -- by a wide margin.

Virtually every Force power used to attack was errata'd at some point.

Many were tweaked, yes. There are far more others that weren't. But more to the point, what does that have to do with anything? If that's evidence of some inherently defective design, well, OCR was changed in RCR. How is that not clear and convincing evidence that OCR also sucks?

3.x , 3.5 and 4E and Pathfinder have all received extensive errata. Do they all suck too?

If "it needed errata" is the test as to whether the game is good or bad - I think you might want to check the length of the errata file for the RCR version of the game. The RCR errata is about three times as long as the SE errata.

Or how about we just call it a red herring?

Darth Vader is incapable of grabbing someone's neck and choking them to death, under Saga rules.

He has a cybernetic arm and the foe was helpless. SW:SE says that it takes one round to kill him with a coup de grace. Sounds about right to me.

Saga managed to accomplish one impressive thing: It actually made me somewhat regret getting rid of my RCR materials. The RCR had a lot going for it, and it would have been easier to houserule that than to get the Saga system to do virtually anything I wanted it to.

Your tastes are your own. FWIW, Saga sold much better than the previous versions of SW (by more than a little) and won several industry awards. That doesn't change your preferences, but there is some evidence which indicates that maybe there are a lot of people who disagree with you?

As for balance, I far prefer it over the D20 versions.

It all comes down to the Jedi and whether they will overshadow and break the game -- or underwhelm and not feel like Jedi. The D20 version, much like the D6 version, underpowers the Jedi with its skill based approach to The Force, imo. Saga Edition went to Encounter based powers. Regardless of how you fell about that being reworked and applied to D&D in 4E - in Star Wars: Saga Edition -- it works very well.

Seeing as KotoR 1 rewrote the D20 rules to make the Jedi under D20 more powerful, and seeing as a lot of people bought the guide to the KotoR 1 computer game to use as an alternative PHB in OCR/RCR for running Jedi -- it would appear that there were at least some people who did not share your opinion.

Anyway, this is getting to threadjack land now - so I'll disengage.

[powers off lightsaber]

 

[pawsplay]

Uhm, no. Actually, their Ref Def would go up by two - same as anybody else.

But at they lack the feat to maneuver in it, their attacks go down by two as do a few other skills. Jedi are the only base class that does not get Armor Proficiency (Light) as a potenitial bonus feat. They can take that feat at third level if they so choose - or multiclass at 2nd and take it then.

Of course, their Ref Def at 2nd level is equal to the bonus a blast vest and helmet confers on non-heroic classes anyways -- so I'm not sure why they would want to wear it.

Ok, yeah, I was talking about a character higher than 2nd level. If a a 7th level Jedi Knight puts one on, as so many do in the Clone Wars series, his defense drops several points, in return for... nothing.

When it comes to armor -- like weapon proficiencies -- it's about game balance. Virtually every Jedi begins the game by choosing the Deflect talent. Nobody else can do that. When it comes to what armor MEANS in the game (not getting hit), the first level Jedi have everybody in the game beat from the get go -- by a wide margin.

Game balance never excuses things that are just, how to put this, completely illogical. If I were making a James Bond RPG, I wouldn't restrict sports cars to 25 mph because of "game balance."

I wouldn't expecta Jedi who purposefully took Armor Proficiency (light) to be less defended in a blast helmet and vest, but that's actually what happens.

Many were tweaked, yes.

If by tweaked, you mean, "The DC, action required, effects, damage, and defense used were changed," then yes, they certainly were.

There are far more others that weren't. But more to the point, what does that have to do with anything? If that's evidence of some inherently defective design, well, OCR was changed in RCR. How is that not clear and convincing evidence that OCR also sucks?

Saga was errata'd while very much in print, in very dramatic ways. That is pretty much an admission that the game was not working as it should. Making radical changes in a new edition means... it is a new edition, and you are trying something different. The point is that Saga was a badly developed product that did not get nearly the playtesting and editing it deserved. Lots of really talented people worked on it, but it just didn't come together, and it went to press before the problems were identified and worked out.

3.x , 3.5 and 4E and Pathfinder have all received extensive errata. Do they all suck too?

Just... uh, nevermind.

If "it needed errata" is the test as to whether the game is good or bad - I think you might want to check the length of the errata file for the RCR version of the game. The RCR errata is about three times as long as the SE errata.

Actually, I had it all printed out. It was a few pages, and only modified a few of the powers in not very central ways.

Or how about we just call it a red herring?

He has a cybernetic arm and the foe was helpless. SW:SE says that it takes one round to kill him with a coup de grace. Sounds about right to me.

Whoa, there! Why was the foe helpless? Darth Vader is incapable of pinning foes. In fact, he can't even grapple. Grappling is a feat in Saga, and Vader does not have it.

Your tastes are your own. FWIW, Saga sold much better than the previous versions of SW (by more than a little) and won several industry awards. That doesn't change your preferences, but there is some evidence which indicates that maybe there are a lot of people who disagree with you?

I know from spending time on the WotC message boards that plenty of people agreed with me. Your assertions are not interesting. It doesn't matter if I am in the minority, only that my opinions are reasonable. Awards, schmords.

As for balance, I far prefer it over the D20 versions.

Good for you.

It all comes down to the Jedi and whether they will overshadow and break the game -- or underwhelm and not feel like Jedi. The D20 version, much like the D6 version, underpowers the Jedi with its skill based approach to The Force, imo.

In both, Jedi can be extraordinarily powerful. In RCR, a Jedi could be outshone only in very narrow ways. For instance, a Soldier could outshoot a Jedi at a range. But a Jedi was second-best at ... basically everything, and number one at front-line defense and Dex-based skill checks.

Seeing as KotoR 1 rewrote the D20 rules to make the Jedi under D20 more powerful, and seeing as a lot of people bought the guide to the KotoR 1 computer game to use as an alterantive PHB in OCR/RCR for running Jedi -- it would appear that there were at leat some people who did not share your opinion.

Seeing as KOTOR was based on the d20 version, I do not understand what point you are trying to make. If KOTOR was any guide to what people want, Star Wars should focus on Dark Side Jedi who wield a lightsaber in one hand and a poisonous vibroblade in the other.

 

[Fifth Element]

Edition Wars...They're Not Just for D&D Anymore!

 

[Umbran]

I think it's a good topic to bring up now, though, considering that d6 is now COMPLETELY open due to WEG going belly-up.

No. A company going belly-up does not make their properties open.

D6 is open because it was released under an open license.