The AC on a Budget challenge

[Keldin]

I think I ninjaed you with my edit.

Heh. Yeah. I was trying to figure out how to get a background color, then figured just to forget it.

Though, technically, in Pathfinder, it's a Monk's Robe. In some games, you could end up wearing both! (In my own games, I'd probably just allow one or the other in terms of form factor, and follow the rules of the game I'm running.)

 

[Shayuri]

Is the Monk's Belt overpowered for the price? Yes and no.

It's worth almost nothing for a character with a 10 Wisdom. (13k for +1AC=very expensive).

It's worth a lot to a character with a Wisdom of 20, more if the Wisdom is higher.

That's one of the complaints about it made by many of the "everything should be formulaic" advocates: It's price is fixed, but its usefulness isn't.

But it is what it is. Nobody with a low Wisdom should waste their money on one.

It is, admittedly, only overpowered in limited circumstances. But within those circumstances, it's pretty wildly overpowered.

That said, even most clerics would probably be better off in armor than with a Monk's Belt. A druid could make excellent use of one though, as their armor choices are more limited...especially if you take Wildshape into account.

A ranger...kind of depends. I think overall they'd be better off with armor, but you could probably do a dex/wis specialist build that'd make good use of a belt.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Actually, this is a question that is addressed in the FAQ, page 62 to be specific.

Except that FAQs are lulz.

Their accuracy for rules is lulzy in the extreme, and it's not RAW in any case. That said, in this case they have the right answer, but taking them seriously is, in general, a bad idea.

Is the Monk's Belt overpowered for the price? Yes and no.

No, it's not broken period.

It's worth a lot to a character with a Wisdom of 20, more if the Wisdom is higher.

No, it's worth almost nothing to most high wis characters because clerics should be wearing armor and druids have Wilding Clasps so they can have better equipment as well.

But it is what it is. Nobody with a low Wisdom should waste their money on one.

And just because no non-caster can use the Karma bead, I guess it's utterly unproblematic.

Heh. Yeah. I was trying to figure out how to get a background color, then figured just to forget it.

Though, technically, in Pathfinder, it's a Monk's Robe. In some games, you could end up wearing both! (In my own games, I'd probably just allow one or the other in terms of form factor, and follow the rules of the game I'm running.)

And wearing them both would be meaningless as they both grant the same ability, and so don't stack.

It is, admittedly, only overpowered in limited circumstances. But within those circumstances, it's pretty wildly overpowered.

Only if those circumstances are "never" or "under no."

That said, even most clerics would probably be better off in armor than with a Monk's Belt.

And it can't take armor enhancements. It's terrible for most clerics, and a cleric can pump its AC so high anyways that even if it were to offer some gain, despite, you know, being almost never superior to +5 plate, it's generally irrelevant.

A druid could make excellent use of one though, as their armor choices are more limited...especially if you take Wildshape into account.

No, they really aren't.

A ranger...kind of depends. I think overall they'd be better off with armor, but you could probably do a dex/wis specialist build that'd make good use of a belt.

No, a ranger will never be better off. Or, rather, if they are the build is so utterly terrible that it's pointless.

 

[Keldin]

Their accuracy for rules is lulzy in the extreme, and it's not RAW in any case. That said, in this case they have the right answer, but taking them seriously is, in general, a bad idea.

Doesn't really make much difference in my opinion. The FAQ is included on wizards.com as official, so it's as close to rules as written as you're gonna get, other than it being in the book itself.

And wearing them both would be meaningless as they both grant the same ability, and so don't stack.

Actually, in both D&D and Pathfinder, the Monk's AC bonus is untyped, and untyped bonuses DO stack. It's not a matter of it being the same ability, strictly speaking -- you can get the same affect from two different magic items and, so long as they are a type that stacks (like dodge bonuses), they'll stack.

That said, I'm not crazy enough to actually do this - I know the Monk's Belt and Monk's Robe are the same thing - but I could see a DM allowing this, especially if they're playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Doesn't really make much difference in my opinion. The FAQ is included on wizards.com as official, so it's as close to rules as written as you're gonna get, other than it being in the book itself.

No it isn't. It's not text from the book or other similar source. It is not errata The text remains the text. Dead stop, the end, that's it.

Actually, in both D&D and Pathfinder, the Monk's AC bonus is untyped, and untyped bonuses DO stack. It's not a matter of it being the same ability, strictly speaking -- you can get the same affect from two different magic items and, so long as they are a type that stacks (like dodge bonuses), they'll stack.

Wrong. They both give the monk's AC Bonus ability. Untyped bonuses stack, but the same ability does not.

So, no. "Strictly speaking," it does not work.

That said, I'm not crazy enough to actually do this - I know the Monk's Belt and Monk's Robe are the same thing - but I could see a DM allowing this, especially if they're playing fast and loose with the rules.

And the DM and the player would be in flagrant disregard for the rules. An argument that an item used in a way that it cannot be used in is an utterly inane argument.

 

[Shayuri]

Well, looks like Cyclone's spoken. Guess we can shut the thread down and go home.

 

[captnq]

Cheap stuff

Best armor:
Night scale (if you have a dex of 30) - 1000 gp
Thaauld Stone Armor - 2800 if you have a dex of 10

Both have a combined Base AC/Potential dex bonus of 12.

Chahar-ania and Dastana don't stack with each other. They don't count as shield bonuses. They only work on three types of armor. The best of which has a total armor/dex armor of 8. However, using all three allows you to have one with a max EB and then you can spread your ASAs among the other two to keep your costs down.

Also, armor augmentation crystals can go on each item seperately, even if they don't stack with each other allowing you to really build up immunities.

Also, you can get a pair of bracers of armor. This armor allows you (keep it to AC 1, it won't stack with other armor) by the rules add another +5 ASAs.

Now, one particular piece of armor, the Bondleaf wrap, has no max Dex penalty. So if you have a Dex of 40, it beats out the others, and is a mere 1,000 gp. Alas, it will not work with chahar-ania and dastana. Keeps your ASA stacking to a minimum.

Now, a leather collar, which is AC against garotes, techincally is armor, so you could wear one and put more ASAs on it. Also another armor augment crystal.

Whoops. Gotta run.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Chahar-ania and Dastana don't stack with each other.

Wrong.

They don't count as shield bonuses.

No, they're stacking armor bonuses.

They only work on three types of armor.

...And? Those armors are the best, because Chahar Aina are awesome.

The best of which has a total armor/dex armor of 8.

...And now we're pretending mithral and armor enhancements aren't a thing? lolokay.

A single piece or armor has to have a total of +27 to be comparable to an enchanted mithral chain shirt+accessories, and then you don't have all the fun toys. But, please, do go on about this hypothetical dex52 character.

 

[delericho]

Chahar-ania and Dastana don't stack with each other. They don't count as shield bonuses.

As CJ says, this is incorrect. These two items provide special armour bonuses that stack with other armour bonuses.

However, it's important to note that the 3.0e rulebook "Oriental Adventures", which introduced these items, was officially updated to 3.5e rules in Dragon #318. On page 42 of said magazine, we find the following:

"Both dastanas and chahar-ainas provide special armor bonuses to AC that stack with other armor bonuses granted by certain forms of light armor. However, it is still the case that only one enhancement bonus can apply to a character's armor bonus at any time. Thus, if a character wears +2 dastanas, a +1 chahar-aina, and +1 cloth armor then only the +2 bonus from the dastanas increases his AC."

(The emphasis is mine.)

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

However, it's important to note that the 3.0e rulebook "Oriental Adventures", which introduced these items, was officially updated to 3.5e rules in Dragon #318. On page 42 of said magazine, we find the following:

"Both dastanas and chahar-ainas provide special armor bonuses to AC that stack with other armor bonuses granted by certain forms of light armor. However, it is still the case that only one enhancement bonus can apply to a character's armor bonus at any time. Thus, if a character wears +2 dastanas, a +1 chahar-aina, and +1 cloth armor then only the +2 bonus from the dastanas increases his AC."

(The emphasis is mine.)

Except that reasoning is blatantly incorrect. Bonuses don't work that way.

Furthermore, it's Dragon. I really think that's all that needs to be said, as to taking it seriously. I mean, why not start including 3rd party books or homebrew while you're at it?

Plus, with the way it's worded, the "fix" only applied with +1 cloth, +1 chahar aina, and +2 dastana. I just think that's worth pointing out.