Keeping a Group Together

was

Adventurer
Having said that, if I "fudge" a dice roll, it is almost always for the benefit of the players.

...This is most often the tactic that I have used, and have seen used. Most of the time, "fudging" is simply small, minute changes that benefit pc's and are largely undetectable to players.

...I really see no reason why a DM should feel guilty, or a need to explain, making small tweaks in the design of his/her adventure that ultimately benefit players. Unlike other posters, however, I have not run into a DM who completely changes an encounter/fight in the middle of it.
 

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SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
I always let new players know upfront (before they agree to play the game) that the rules are only guidelines, and that the GM is god. I don't tolerate rules lawyers. The game and the story are the important parts, and the goal is for everyone to have fun.

Having said that, if I "fudge" a dice roll, it is almost always for the benefit of the players. I do my rolling behind the GM screen, so the players usually don't see it, but if one did and objected to what I was doing my response would be "I'm exercising GM discretion."

I think this is really a great answer.
 


SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
I don't think you could call me out on anything ever in your life, Ezekiel. Keep trying, though. Maybe someday some of my own courtesy and greater wisdom will rub off on you.
 

SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
And folks, it is not dishonest to deny the players information about anything you don't want them to know.

Even the Vulcans do not have to volunteer information, and to call a denial of fudging a lie is in fact changing the subject. Trust me, it's not something you want to call anyone a liar over.

This is about preventing hard feelings, including any embarrassment for the DM. It comes across to me as making fun of you.

In Ezekiel's misguided example, if a player asked you after a fight if you fudged any of the rolls, two things are factually important. First is that it's your choice whether you want to disclose that. At the least, you can consider denying the information. Just tell the players it's not for them to know if you want. But the second thing happening is you may feel needled or pressured by the player, who may persist in demanding an answer if you tell him something like that. It may be better for you, and you are the most important player after all, to just use a flat denial to nip any more argument in the bud.

The players have no right to any of the DM's information.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
[sarcasm]Yeah, that is about a good a way as anyone can use to keep a group together.[/sarcasm]

I hear these stories and I have to thank God that I don't play in any of these games and that I'm blessed with some awesome players.

I think as a DM I've grown past the point of needing these artificial cheats, or needing to find ways to justify them to myself as anything but cheats, to have an interesting game.
 
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pemerton

Legend
The players have no right to any of the DM's information.
This is not a statement of necessary truth. It's an expression of a playstyle preference, and I would say a fairly narrow one at that.

For instance, if I'm GMing a classic D&D module, and the treasure key says that there is a magic sword in the chest, and a player whose PC is standing next to the chest casts Detect Magic, then the player absolutely has a right to the information that the spell registers the presence of magic in the chest.

That's the whole point of those detection spells and abilities that are so common in classic D&D - that when players use them in relevant circumstances, the GM is obliged to hand over GM information, in the form of true answers about what is written in the dungeon key.

I really see no reason why a DM should feel guilty, or a need to explain, making small tweaks in the design of his/her adventure that ultimately benefit players.
This is a different process from fudging dice rolls - it is changing the fiction, as opposed to interfering in the mechanics of action resolution.

For some players the two things - changing fiction, fudging dice - may be equally permissible or impermissible. But there will be other players for whom one is permissible but the other not.

Fudging a die roll is a tool at the DM's disposal. Like everything at a DM's disposal it is not inherently good or bad. How it is applied is what matters.
I'm not sure what this is meant to mean. Applying fudging at my table is bad. But that's not really about "how it is applied", is it?

Fudging is acceptable to some playstyles but not others. As a generalisation, the more comfortable a group is with the idea that the point of the game is for the players to experience the GM's world/adventure/story, the more comfortable the group will be with knowing that fudging is taking place.

For my part, I incline towards Luke Crane's view, talking about Moldvay Basic:

I've a deeper understanding why fudging dice is the worst rule ever proposed. The rules indicate fudging with a wink and a nudge, "Don't let a bad die roll ruin a good game." Seems like good advice, but to them I say, "Don't put bad die rolls in your game."

To expand on the point: The players' sense of accomplishment is enormous. They went through hell and death to survive long enough to level. They have their own stories about how certain scenarios played out. They developed their own clever strategems to solve the puzzles and defeat the opposition. If I fudge a die, I take that all away. Every bit of it. Suddenly, the game becomes my story about what I want to happen. The players, rather than being smart and determined and lucky, are pandering to my sense of drama—to what I think the story should be.

So this wink and nudge that encourages GMs to fudge is the greatest flaw of the text.​

If the player's can't if tell the DM is fudging, it doesn't matter if he does or not.
If the players can tell the DM is fudging, he's shouldn't be doing it.

If the players suspect a DM is fudging, something has gone wrong.
Like [MENTION=6790260]EzekielRaiden[/MENTION] upthread, I think there is a tension here. If fudging is OK only when the players neither know nor suspect it, then there is something fishy about it. RPGing is a social activity, so why can't the methods all be public to the participants?
 

I'm not sure what this is meant to mean. Applying fudging at my table is bad. But that's not really about "how it is applied", is it?

Hmm ... let me try to explain. Fudging some die rolls to ensure that the game continues and that everyone at the table is having fun is, in my experience and opinion, a good thing! :) Fudging the die rolls so that the baddies always hit, make their saves, crit or generally make it feel like the DM is being vindictive is a bad thing. Does that help?
 


SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
[sarcasm]Yeah, that is about a good a way as anyone can use to keep a group together.[/sarcasm]

I hear these stories and I have to thank God that I don't play in any of these games and that I'm blessed with some awesome players.

I think as a DM I've grown past the point of needing these artificial cheats, or needing to find ways to justify them to myself as anything but cheats, to have an interesting game.

Every time you perpetuate the stigma it's cheating, you make it more appealing to deny doing it. I don't have a problem with someone denying it, or doing it, but I'd rather not be informed either way.
 

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