D&D 4E Brainstorming a "Phil. of 4e 101" resource

[D'karr]

The problem with not using examples is that those without experience in dealing with 4e might revert to methods used in other games that they know, or even other versions of the game, and expect similar results.

Some of these methods might work without problem. Others might not work well, or at all, in 4e.

Random encounters, as an example, can work when the DM is able to make informed decisions about those encounters. Random encounters as a throwaway combat challenge in an adventure do not work well in 4e. Because encounters in 4e are meant to be significant, and are built to be so. Therefore if a DM wants to use throwaway encounters, then he might have to shift the focus so that the encounter is truly non-significant (built as such), or know that his efforts might be better used elsewhere, and not use throwaway combat encounters at all.

It's a case of properly handling expectations. That can usually be done in a better manner with examples.

 

[MoutonRustique]

It's also a case where we tend to imitate as opposed to listen - or that we "listen" to action more than speeches.

As an example : when you break at a stop sign, you must immobilize your vehicle. You are told this by your instructor, the law and policemen. But then, you look around and the accepted action, is to simply slow down (a lot).

So, for those who start out in 4e, the forums could be the instructor, the DMG2 is the law and... I don't have a good analogy for the policemen. On the other hand, published material is what you see others doing. It'll be your starting and base reference as it's much easier to create off of something than to start from abstract concepts - especially at first!

Examples are what we do - and it always* speaks louder than what we say.
*rambling text about exceptions and etc, etc.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Examples are also important when explaining 4E because it's the edition that has arguably attracted the most BS ("It's WOW!") so part of the job of explaining it is also dealing with the misinformation that exists.

 

[Manbearcat]

Since [MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION] handled "make the PC's want to move", I'll do the next one. Others can certainly feel free to do other subsequent ones!

c) Make the PCs want to force move the bad guys.

1) OH MY GOD THERE IS A CLIFF NEARBY WHERE THIS BAD GUY CAN PRACTICE HIS SWAN DIVES!

[sblock]Force move all squares of creature over edge to force creature to make a saving throw for prone in square closest to edge or d10damge/10 ft of fall.[/sblock]

2) OH MY GOD CHALLENGING TERRAIN HELPS ME HURT THIS GUY AND KEEP HIM LOCKED DOWN!

[sblock]Effect: Brambleweed squares are difficult terrain. A creature that starts its turn in a brambleweed square takes 5 damage per tier. A creature that ends its turn in a brambleweed square is restrained until the start of its next turn.[/sblock]

3) OH MY GOD IF I MOVE THIS BAD GUY NEXT TO THIS OBSTACLE (eg a pillar or floor-to-ceiling wall), I CAN CREATE SITUATIONS THAT DON'T SUCK!

[sblock]a) An opening to move away, break line-of-sight and gain superior cover to attempt Stealth.

b) Potentially prevent 1 or more charge attacks or prevent combat advantage/flanking from other enemies due to movement requirements.

c) Force foes to move through Fighter/Defender's "zone of control" to attempt to get to me.[/sblock]

 

[Manbearcat]

d) Make the PCs want to stunt.

1) Say yes. Say yes again. And again. And again, and again, and again, and again. Unless the PCs propose something preposterous and genre disingenuous (for the tier in question), just frigging say yes and let them roll their dice.

2) Again, interactive environments. Give swashbuckling Rogues some bannisters and chandeliers to slide down/swing on/or collapse on a pile of mooks. Give Fighters some ruined walls and burning braziers to push over like a titan laying siege to a castle. Give Wizards an Unstable Arcane Nexus or an Entropic Fissure to draw forth dangerous cosmic power. Let them roll their Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcanas versus Medium DCs and their +3/+5 vs of-level AC/NAD.

3) Negotiate the damage expression budget with an eye toward being fair and then some to the PCs. Let the players gain cool effects that play to archetype and are just what the doctor ordered when their in a pinch.

 

[MoutonRustique]

Slight derailment - have you guys seen this : http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=file&fileid=1005 ? I just stumbled upon it today.

While it is outdated and clearly aimed at players and not DMs, it reads fairly well! IMO it would be a good format to try and emulate (also, it might be a good idea to revamp it - and give more examples :smallgrin: )

Your thoughts ?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Slight derailment - have you guys seen this : http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=file&fileid=1005 ? I just stumbled upon it today.

While it is outdated and clearly aimed at players and not DMs, it reads fairly well! IMO it would be a good format to try and emulate (also, it might be a good idea to revamp it - and give more examples :smallgrin: )

Your thoughts ?

Its a good summary of how to play and what the rules are. The question is if this was supposed to be about rules/howto or about 'philosophy' in the sense that the 'Old School Manifesto' is. IMHO they are really entirely different things.

 

[MoutonRustique]

Its a good summary of how to play and what the rules are. The question is if this was supposed to be about rules/howto or about 'philosophy' in the sense that the 'Old School Manifesto' is. IMHO they are really entirely different things.

It's kind of funny to me (you'll get why in a moment).

In terms of games like these, I prefer to have my philosophy through the How-To. For me, it's kind of like 4e itself in a way - you have mechanics that reflect flavour and you can extract flavour from the mechanics.

A pure philosophy booklet/pamphlet would just be useful as a sort of "only the headers" document - great for those that need a memory jog, interesting for others - but of very uncertain usability for those that don't know what those headers refer to.

It's just one more example of just how vast "What is 4e?" really is. (Which I find fun!) And, again, this is IMO. And I'm more than willing to meet you on your side (as I'm pretty tall (1,88m) and can stretch a fair deal ) to keep the work flowing.

Also, I know many consider them childish, but I like emoticons. They punctuate well - and they're fun! I just felt like defending myself.

To reprise (am I using this word correctly?) : I suggest the following - create a "headers-based" philosophy of 4e where each header would receive a short-ish paragraph/essay.

This can then (or actually simultaneously) be used to create a "How-To" by simply transforming (polite way of saying "deleting") the explanations into examples!

We get 2 for ... 1,85 (as the paragraphs seem to come pretty easily to many, I only gave them a 0,15 weight in terms of effort required.) Still! That's a bit of gain on effort to product!

Note: I'm assuming this is geared towards DMs.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's kind of funny to me (you'll get why in a moment).

In terms of games like these, I prefer to have my philosophy through the How-To. For me, it's kind of like 4e itself in a way - you have mechanics that reflect flavour and you can extract flavour from the mechanics.

A pure philosophy booklet/pamphlet would just be useful as a sort of "only the headers" document - great for those that need a memory jog, interesting for others - but of very uncertain usability for those that don't know what those headers refer to.

It's just one more example of just how vast "What is 4e?" really is. (Which I find fun!) And, again, this is IMO. And I'm more than willing to meet you on your side (as I'm pretty tall (1,88m) and can stretch a fair deal ) to keep the work flowing.

Also, I know many consider them childish, but I like emoticons. They punctuate well - and they're fun! I just felt like defending myself.

To reprise (am I using this word correctly?) : I suggest the following - create a "headers-based" philosophy of 4e where each header would receive a short-ish paragraph/essay.

This can then (or actually simultaneously) be used to create a "How-To" by simply transforming (polite way of saying "deleting") the explanations into examples!

We get 2 for ... 1,85 (as the paragraphs seem to come pretty easily to many, I only gave them a 0,15 weight in terms of effort required.) Still! That's a bit of gain on effort to product!

Note: I'm assuming this is geared towards DMs.

Right, I think I'm not really super invested in making it come out a certain way. Its [MENTION=6790260]EzekielRaiden[/MENTION] 's thread, so its to some extent his call really as to what his vision is.

I see the 'howto' thing as being kind of an endless swamp though, you can expound forever on how to run 4e. It almost seems like no one short document can really capture that at a useful level of detail, though I guess that may just be my perspective. A philosophical statement OTOH might be finite in scope and lay out the essence of the sort of game it is. Everything else then just needs to be viewed by the reader in that light and they can come to an appreciation of how to play (at which point they can of course benefit from howtos, etc).

Anyway, I don't want to clutter up Zeke's thread with my maunderings.

 

[Jessica]

If we're talking about a 4e type manifesto similar to this( http://www.goblinoidgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1314 ), then I think a few things that should go into it should include mentions of how the character is the star, players should be mechanically challenged throughout the campaign, team work is of utmost importance, players should always have options whether in creating/leveling their character or in combat on a round-to-round basis, and details agnosticism should encourage greater creativity.