D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query

[UngeheuerLich]

Pretty extreme corner case though isnt it?

And even then 'You get a bad feeling that youre about to be attacked - roll initiative'

Or even:

John Matrix: Keep an eye out, they'll be coming. You're downwind, the air currents might tip them off
Jackson: Downwind?
[looks at Matrix like he's crazy]
Jackson: You think I could smell them coming?
John Matrix: I did.

View attachment 74098

Yes, and I admitted that already

 

[Hriston]

And sometimes hidden creatures don't show themselves before they attack by using a ranged weapon etc.

In this case I would "alert" the party to the fact that combat is beginning by telling them they hear the twang of a bowstring and the sound of an arrow in flight. If the sniper is silenced, or too far away, then they only hear the arrow. An attack is underway and combat has begun. Roll initiative.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, an instant effect then.

 

[Hriston]

Ok, an instant effect then.

I'm not sure what you mean, but to clarify, the sound of the arrow in flight begins combat, but the arrow doesn't find its mark until the sniper's initiative count.

 

[FrogReaver]

DND 5e rules do not handle opening a combat by an attack.

You have 2 options:
1. Resolve the attack outside combat and then roll initiative.
2. Roll initiative when the party has no sign of danger.

I prefer method 2. Especially in parties without alert where that attack will surprise them all. I mean nothing they can do about it anyways. So having them roll initiative tells them as players im about to pop something out on them but since they are surprised they cannot do nothing about it.

Method 2 is a little less realistic when the party has the alert feat. Sometimes there is no good explanation as to how such a character knows an attack is about to come and thus how he would be prepared for it before the other party members. There are three options here: 1. just chalk it up to a magical awareness. Thus no explanation needed. Think spider man spidey sense. 2. Find a plausible explanation and go with it. Throw a strange acting bird he notices that tells him something bad is about to happen. As a DM you can always throw in a strange acting animal to tip the alert characters off. 3. Modify the alert feat such that there is a classification of events that would surprise such a character.

Personally I'd go with spidey sense.

 

[chriton227]

I'm not sure what you mean, but to clarify, the sound of the arrow in flight begins combat, but the arrow doesn't find its mark until the sniper's initiative count.

How would you resolve the paradox if a caster in the party managed to land a Hold Person on the sniper before the sniper's initiative count? Either the sniper isn't able to make the attack that alerted the party to the sniper's presence, or you negate the value of the caster's action by ruling the attack still takes place despite the successful Hold.

 

[Hriston]

DND 5e rules do not handle opening a combat by an attack.

How else do you suppose combat begins if not by one or both sides acting aggressively against (i.e. attacking) the other? I suppose you could also do it by gentleman's agreement.

You have 2 options:
1. Resolve the attack outside combat and then roll initiative.

IMO, this should never happen. In the case of the Alert feat, it unfairly circumvents immunity to surprise by imposing a de facto surprise round.

2. Roll initiative when the party has no sign of danger.

This also nerfs Alert by initiative purging the alert PCs. IMO, players should always know a fight is beginning when they roll initiative, either because they are being attacked, or they have chosen to attack.

 

[Hriston]

How would you resolve the paradox if a caster in the party managed to land a Hold Person on the sniper before the sniper's initiative count? Either the sniper isn't able to make the attack that alerted the party to the sniper's presence, or you negate the value of the caster's action by ruling the attack still takes place despite the successful Hold.

First, the caster would need to see the sniper to cast "hold person", but let's say that's a possibility. I'd say the arrow flies wild and misses since a paralyzed creature can't take the Attack action.

 

[FrogReaver]

How else do you suppose combat begins if not by one or both sides acting aggressively against (i.e. attacking) the other? I suppose you could also do it by gentleman's agreement.



IMO, this should never happen. In the case of the Alert feat, it unfairly circumvents immunity to surprise by imposing a de facto surprise round.



This also nerfs Alert by initiative purging the alert PCs. IMO, players should always know a fight is beginning when they roll initiative, either because they are being attacked, or they have chosen to attack.

It sounds to me more like you just dislike the only options available. You try to handwave through those options to give the illusion that you are not following them. But in the end you have an out of combat attack occuring with some interesting houserules in effect to get the desired effects you want.

1. The monster attacks outside of combat. This initiates combat
2. The attack that initiated combat doesn't resolve immediately (new houserule)
3. Initiative is rolled.
4. Either a player with alert goes first or whichever enemy rolled higher initiative than the enemy that provided the opening shot goes first.
5. The enemies ally attacks and resolves his attack before the attack that initiated combat.
6. The attack that initiated combat finally resolves on that enemies turn (not sure if he gets to make a 2nd attack here or not since we are in houserule realm)
7. Combat finally starts resolving normally.

Your preferred method is to have the attack happen outside combat and then create some houserules for it to resolve within combat. Interesting approach but it still falls under one of the options I gave in my original analysis...

 

[Noctem]

There's lots of misinformation at the start of this thread but it seems by the 3rd page people are posting the correct rules answers.

As for my own games, I resolve whatever triggered combat first and then have initiative rolled. In the case of an attack, I resolve that specific attack. I then determine who is surprised and finally after all of that, round 1 begins. There's many reasons for this including avoiding some of the problems listed in this thread. It has been working very well thus far.