D&D 5E Solving the problem of initiative.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Can it even be solved?

Specifically I'm talking about the "STOP!", wait for a beat, "Hammer time!" phenomena that initiative turns create. I understand why it's this way, but lately I've been wracking my tiny brain for ways to make it better. Rolling initiative every turn is so tedious and time consuming. Rolling group initiative doesn't work either. Side initiative seems to take the worst aspects of every system and combine them together. I'm genuinely at a loss as to what could be done to improve the situation. I'm even willing to entertain changing the nature of initiative itself to an entirely new sub-system.

About the only thing that's I've felt wasn't too bad was limiting everyone to only one thing per turn instead of action + move + bonus action + item interaction. Even that has issues though. The other thing I've thought of is opposed initiative. That being you only roll when you look to oppose someone else or if you're opposed in some way. So you want to sneak away during a fight? OK, done. But if someone is hunting for you in the melee while you're trying to sneak away? Now it's a contest between two opposed entities.

I don't know, it's all very mathy and complex and hurting my brain. Anyone else got any better ideas?

 

[Rya.Reisender]

What is the problem with the normal initiative system? You only roll once per battle, then act out in order. That seems the most ideal system at least for real life Pen&Paper.

In PbP, I also like the system where everybody just says what he wants to do and then I just act it all out how I feel like (what makes for the best narration). That works nice because I have a lot more time to think about my post that I'd have in real life and on top of that the wait times for the players to post their actions is much lower because all can post them at the same time.

 

[Lanliss]

maybe attach a number to each thing a person could do on their turn, and these add up as they use the actions. for example, Rogue takes Attack action (3 points), then hides (5 points). it now has 8 points. Orc has 2 points, and takes the Search action (3 points), finds the rogue, and takes attack action. Now Rogue and orc are tied, and they roll initiative to see who goes first out of the two.

Simply continue this pattern, always going with whoever has the fewest points, which tick down as time goes by.

In the example above, When it became the orcs turn, 2 got subtracted from it and the rogue, making the orc ), and the rogue 6. Search took 3, making the rogue 3, then the attack made 3 again, causing them to both arrive at 0 at the same time.

This can be balanced however you like by simply adjusting the numbers of the different abilities.

 

[ammulder]

In an old 3.5 variant, we used the "phase system":

Powers Phase (breath weapons, Power Word spells, etc.)
Missile Phase
Melee Phase
Clerical spell Phase
Mage spell Phase
Item Phase
Movement Phase

The phases went in order, all actions within a phase were simultaneous, but could interrupt actions in a later phase. So, for instance, by injuring a caster in melee or missile phase, you could force them to make a concentration check if they wanted to cast later in the round. Someone struck down in melee phase could be healed back up in clerical phase.

There were some gymnastics, such as when a charge attack happened. Anyone killed in a melee still got their "final strike" because actions within the phase were simultaneous.

It's certainly a system with merits, but harder to adapt to 5e where so many things last "until the end of your next turn" -- and in the phase system, that could be almost two rounds or barely any time at all depending on where your this-round-action and next-round-action fall in the phase order.

 

[ccs]

Well, the easiest way is to just alternate back & forth between DM & Players.
Roll a single dice to see wich side gets to start it off.

 

[pdzoch]

Can it even be solved?

Specifically I'm talking about the "STOP!", wait for a beat, "Hammer time!" phenomena that initiative turns create. I understand why it's this way, but lately I've been wracking my tiny brain for ways to make it better. Rolling initiative every turn is so tedious and time consuming. Rolling group initiative doesn't work either. Side initiative seems to take the worst aspects of every system and combine them together. I'm genuinely at a loss as to what could be done to improve the situation. I'm even willing to entertain changing the nature of initiative itself to an entirely new sub-system.

About the only thing that's I've felt wasn't too bad was limiting everyone to only one thing per turn instead of action + move + bonus action + item interaction. Even that has issues though. The other thing I've thought of is opposed initiative. That being you only roll when you look to oppose someone else or if you're opposed in some way. So you want to sneak away during a fight? OK, done. But if someone is hunting for you in the melee while you're trying to sneak away? Now it's a contest between two opposed entities.

I don't know, it's all very mathy and complex and hurting my brain. Anyone else got any better ideas?

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Initiative seems to move pretty smoothly in my game so far. The ability to break up a move into segments have been a real plus for 5E that allows for a more fluid sequence in the game. My players tend to make heavy use of delaying their initiative turns and ready actions to set up fighting sequences to pretty good effect. As the characters level up, they start to have additional attacks, moves, bonus actions and reactions that allow for a whole lot more action during the game, especially the reactions.

 

[Lanliss]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Initiative seems to move pretty smoothly in my game so far. The ability to break up a move into segments have been a real plus for 5E that allows for a more fluid sequence in the game. My players tend to make heavy use of delaying their initiative turns and ready actions to set up fighting sequences to pretty good effect. As the characters level up, they start to have additional attacks, moves, bonus actions and reactions that allow for a whole lot more action during the game, especially the reactions.

I believe the specific issue being discussed is the "turn" concept. Everything stops, Barbarian does stuff, Everything stops, Fighter does stuff, Everything stops, etc. OP wants a more fluid handling of the order, I think, with the turns essentially intermingled into one mess of a combat, as it should rightly be.

 

[Lanliss]

Well, the easiest way is to just alternate back & forth between DM & Players.
Roll a single dice to see wich side gets to start it off.

This is the "Side Initiative", which the OP specifically labeled as the polar opposite of what they want, and the worst thing ever.

 

[Weird Dave]

Many of the game mechanics of 5E are based around action economy - you can only do so much on your "turn" in a combat round, but here are some nifty tricks you can alternate between. Changing that would be difficult, and while I agree that initiative might be one of the more "this is a game!" aspects of RPGs in general there have been some stabs at making it more intuitive that are worth highlighting.

One of the most interesting that I've seen is the HackMaster 5th Edition system, which uses a "count up" system. There is no round - time is measured in seconds, and actions you decide to take use up so many seconds. Swing a sword? You can do that once every 10 seconds. Swing a two-handed sword? You can do that once every 18 seconds. Etc., etc. You can move 5 feet in one second, but then you can jog 10 feet the next second, and then break into a run on the third second. It's pretty intuitive BUT it's a huge pain for the GM I've found and almost totally reliant on a grid & miniatures.

Depending on what kinds of problems you are trying to solve with initiative, you can also look at kitbashing the Savage Worlds game system. That system uses a deck of regular playing cards, deals out one to each participant in the combat, and then counts down from Ace to Deuce (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs for suits in case of ties). Holding your action involves flipping your card upside down and not getting another one on the next draw but allows you to interrupt someone else's action. In Savage Worlds there are Edges (similar-ish to feats) that change some of the mechanics of the card-based initiative - Level Headed, for example, allows you to take two cards and keep one of them of your choice. Jokers are wild and give you a special bonus.

Anyway, those are just a few ideas!

 

[Lanliss]

Many of the game mechanics of 5E are based around action economy - you can only do so much on your "turn" in a combat round, but here are some nifty tricks you can alternate between. Changing that would be difficult, and while I agree that initiative might be one of the more "this is a game!" aspects of RPGs in general there have been some stabs at making it more intuitive that are worth highlighting.

One of the most interesting that I've seen is the HackMaster 5th Edition system, which uses a "count up" system. There is no round - time is measured in seconds, and actions you decide to take use up so many seconds. Swing a sword? You can do that once every 10 seconds. Swing a two-handed sword? You can do that once every 18 seconds. Etc., etc. You can move 5 feet in one second, but then you can jog 10 feet the next second, and then break into a run on the third second. It's pretty intuitive BUT it's a huge pain for the GM I've found and almost totally reliant on a grid & miniatures.

Depending on what kinds of problems you are trying to solve with initiative, you can also look at kitbashing the Savage Worlds game system. That system uses a deck of regular playing cards, deals out one to each participant in the combat, and then counts down from Ace to Deuce (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs for suits in case of ties). Holding your action involves flipping your card upside down and not getting another one on the next draw but allows you to interrupt someone else's action. In Savage Worlds there are Edges (similar-ish to feats) that change some of the mechanics of the card-based initiative - Level Headed, for example, allows you to take two cards and keep one of them of your choice. Jokers are wild and give you a special bonus.

Anyway, those are just a few ideas!

Well, that first is basically the same as what I said, so glad I am not the only one on that train. The second is interesting, I might try that out, though it does throw a much larger question mark over initiative than just about any other way I have seen.