D&D 4E A wierd thing I like about 4e

[Garthanos]

I find those to be too good so I allow it only for Defenders.

They can act to balance the value of CON a bit.... but they are OP unless you fix it this is how I do it. My solution to their being too powerful is to allow 3 general ones OR only 1 of that ilk

Most of the backgrounds from FR and Scales of War are worth 2 or 3 general ones.

Backgrounds combined then feel like around the value of a feat

 

[Garthanos]

Its a give in preference to restriction philosophy of game modding in practice. If something is too powerful see if there is a clean way to make the things around it more comparable.

 

[MwaO]

They might seem powerful, but they aren't really. They're basically toughness, the feat. Which isn't really a great feat. And having skills off your usual training list is often really key to having a build work.

It is a Con/Int build, but my Eladrin Battlemind|Swordmage was trained in Stealth/Thievery in part due to his backstory - he was a ghost possessing an Eladrin Thief. Even though he didn't have Ghost of the Past as his Theme.

If I have a dump stat in practice, it tends to be Str or Int.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, its hard to say there is ONE dump stat. It really depends heavily on your build.

CON is a good stat due to extra HS and base hit points, but the difference between a 10 and a 14 isn't exactly HUGE. Add in the fact that there's exactly ONE skill based on CON and it pairs with STR for FORT, which is a key stat for a lot of classes, and it really balances out.

DEX and STR obviously are heavy favorites for weapon using classes, but that covers less than half the classes out there, and even Martial classes always have some heavy favorites for secondary and tertiary stats.

I've seen characters 'dump' pretty much every stat, but there's always some reason most any character would LIKE to have a higher value even in their 'dump' stat. You just have to accept that you will have somewhat of a weakness, or else try to go with a more even array and accept that you're not quite the best possible ever at too many things (though an INT primary character can do pretty well spreading his other stats around a lot).

 

[Garthanos]

I've seen characters 'dump' pretty much every stat, but there's always some reason most any character would LIKE to have a higher value even in their 'dump' stat. You just have to accept that you will have somewhat of a weakness, or else try to go with a more even array and accept that you're not quite the best possible ever at too many things (though an INT primary character can do pretty well spreading his other stats around a lot).

There is a part of me that would like that "some reason" to be even stronger. The game has made it so that every stat is very useful to somebody... but them optimizers seem to find it awfully easy to dump something.

 

[MwaO]

There is a part of me that would like that "some reason" to be even stronger. The game has made it so that every stat is very useful to somebody... but them optimizers seem to find it awfully easy to dump something.

I think that's complex to do without overvaluing modifiers. The advantage of Int to a Fighter is usually small compared to Dex. They don't have an Int-based skills. Etc...

What I think is more important is to make clear that having a starting 20 in a stat is usually a really bad idea. Either because it isn't possible(5e point buy/array) or because it is so expensive that the value is usually negative. And that it is probably okay to have a skill in a stat that isn't particularly great. Once that realization can be made, then things usually work out.

4e has a problem there, because people who aren't really strong optimizers put 20s in their stat because they realize to-hit is important. That's a very expensive way to get a +1 to hit usually with some specific exceptions. Which probably means 4e would have been better off not allowing higher than a 16 pre-racial. And it seems a waste to say get a Cha-based skill on a Fighter with a 10 Cha.

i.e. the problem is not dump stats, the problem is a complete lack of decent tertiary stats and then not picking skills in those areas. My favorite 4e PC with a 12 Dex picked Stealth and Thievery. He took Arcane Mutterings to be good at Cha-skills. He had a wide range of capabilities in almost any skill challenge, even if the stealth/thievery weren't particularly great - +16 Stealth/+14 Thievery(+16 w/tools) at 17th. But that's only -5 behind the +21 on Arcana/History from the starting 18 Int+Eladrin.

 

[Garthanos]

I think that's complex to do without overvaluing modifiers. The advantage of Int to a Fighter is usually small compared to Dex. They don't have an Int-based skills. Etc...
.

Fighters were "f'd" on skills frankly BOTH in number and flavor, in history the fighting classes really were the nobles (with little disconnect) and history and diplomacy and insight many skills are quite reasonable fighter options. (I know accessible by way of background but when history says this IS a very common background why is it diseparate).


Also look at the thread calling itself about perception starts out talking about dumping it... but disconnecting attribute from skills


Never the less I think its more power related value that is influencing it.

What I think is more important is to make clear that having a starting 20 in a stat is usually a really bad idea. Either because it isn't possible(5e point buy/array) or because it is so expensive that the value is usually negative. And that it is probably okay to have a skill in a stat that isn't particularly great. Once that realization can be made, then things usually work out.

4e has a problem there, because people who aren't really strong optimizers put 20s in their stat because they realize to-hit is important. That's a very expensive way to get a +1 to hit usually with some specific exceptions. Which probably means 4e would have been better off not allowing higher than a 16 pre-racial. And it seems a waste to say get a Cha-based skill on a Fighter with a 10 Cha.

I probably could just not worry about it if its only my own players LOL they hate poor stats, and a 16 even post racial is fine with them , but they might be experiencing some oops I missed frustration a bit more than otherwise... makes me think of 13A pervasive damage on a miss (and progressing increase in to hit chance)

i.e. the problem is not dump stats, the problem is a complete lack of decent tertiary stats and then not picking skills in those areas. My favorite 4e PC with a 12 Dex picked Stealth and Thievery. He took Arcane Mutterings to be good at Cha-skills. He had a wide range of capabilities in almost any skill challenge, even if the stealth/thievery weren't particularly great - +16 Stealth/+14 Thievery(+16 w/tools) at 17th. But that's only -5 behind the +21 on Arcana/History from the starting 18 Int+Eladrin.

So that reconfigging the skill system might help?

 

[MwaO]

Fighters were "f'd" on skills frankly BOTH in number and flavor, in history the fighting classes really were the nobles (with little disconnect) and history and diplomacy and insight many skills are quite reasonable fighter options. (I know accessible by way of background but when history says this IS a very common background why is it diseparate).

Backgrounds were a really easy way around this. I think one of the things that Themes should have done was say, "You can pick a theme, but only if you don't have a Scales of War/FR background" - that would have opened up a lot of interesting skill options to most builds without forcibly depriving PCs of those backgrounds. Then make a theme or two that represented "I picked that background." by letting the PC use their highest stat for hp as the 1st level benefit.

 

[Garthanos]

Backgrounds were a really easy way around this. I think one of the things that Themes should have done was say, "You can pick a theme, but only if you don't have a Scales of War/FR background"

I decided to give 3 background benefits and Scales of War/FR I value at 2 or 3 depending.

Themes are sometimes just great for access to the swap out powers

I think of a theme as your Heroic version of a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny...

But I do see they have quite a bit of background impact from them
can I be a Half Elven, Tuathan who was a Wandering Duellist (one possible Lugh Lamfada flavor)
well I can be currently

 

[Garthanos]

Backgrounds were a really easy way around this.

They could get one around the poor spread of skills but not the enfeebled number trained in ... generally speaking

I think I heard someone try to argue athletics was just massively more useful than other skills, but looking at theiving smh