Marvel's "Iron Fist" (Now With Spoilers)

[Morrus]

why don't people like Dardevil season 2 that much? There was no main villain but I loved the hero vs hero angles and the action scenes I thought were the best of all the series so far.

The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.

 

[billd91]

Yeah...I didn't get Sacha Dhawan's casting as Davos either. Was he supposed to be an adopted son? Kinda like Danny? I think he was supposed to be a biological son, explaining his jealousy. That's a case of weird casting that should have been East Asian, I agree. And, personally, I didn't care for his performance as Davos – there was a lot of merit to the nuance he brought, but he had a very "muted" stage presence.

And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.

I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.

 

[Ryujin]

The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.

It certainly had me looking forward to the upcoming "The Punisher" Netflix series. I found Jon Bernthal to be better in the part than either Dolph Lundgren or Thomas Jane, in the previous movie attempts, though Jane wasn't nearly as bad as Lundgren.

 

[Tonguez]

And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.

I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.

yeah maybe, except in this case Davos is in the comics the biological son of Lei-Kung the Thunderer who in the show is portrayed by Actor Hoon Lee (who relevantly is quite emphatic that he identifies himself as an American despite others viewing him as Asian (Korean ancestry))

Hoon Lee himself has said “If you identify yourself with a particular group, it creates a structure and a sense of support, but does it also limit you? Is reverse discrimination a justifiable means to an end? I like examining those kinds of questions.”

 

[Quickleaf]

And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.

I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.

I am fully cognizant of that issue. And it absolutely is an issue.

I think the mismatch for me was more in terms of how Sacha actually portrayed the character Davos (or how the character was written into the script).

Far far below that, a rather minor issue that made me pause, is that Davos is supposed to be the son of Lei-Kung the Thunderer. Which is the source of his envy of Dany Rand. Because of that particular setup, I'd assume Davos was meant to be the same ethnicity as Lei-Kung.

When I saw Sacha, however, I had some disconnect at first following that "ok, THIS is the son of Lei-Kung" due to Sacha's South Asian appearance. And maybe that's very minor degree of racism, I don't know. I do know that if I – a fairly culturally sensitive white dude – was having trouble swallowing that detail, I couldn't have been alone.

 

[Mallus]

I have to admit, I'm really enjoying Iron Fist so far (eps 1-7). My intent was to hate-watch the first episode, but that didn't pan out. It's not good neo-noir like Daredevil, or art like Jessica Jones, and that's okay. For what it's worth, I'm burning through IF at a much faster pace then either DD or JJ.

Colleen Wing is good, Joy & Ward Meachum are, somewhat surprisingly, better, and Danny's Earnest Clueless Zen Trust Fund style is strangely disarming. Plus, RZA directed an episode, and as everyone knows Wu-Tang ain't nuttin' to... ahem.

As for The Unbearable Whiteness of Being Danny Rand... no one would suggest fixing a banker character by making them Jewish. At least I hope not. Same principle applies here.

You don't fix a lack of diversity by embracing old ethnic stereotypes. I say this as someone who was called "Kato", "Grasshopper", and "Bruce Lee" more than my share of times as a kid.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would certainly agree with those who say that "Iron Fist" is the weakest of the Marvel Netflix offerings. I don't think that it's necessarily bad though. You can get into questions of "whitewashing" and "cultural appropriation" but, ultimately, he's a character of the time in which he was created.

That really isn't an excuse.

But mostly, I'm just disappointed that it didn't live up to the potential of the character. And that the actor at no point genuinely looks like he has spent years training in martial arts. Not in terms of basic physical appearance, or in terms of how he moves or holds himself. That was a bummer. The weak dialogue and somewhat boring plot, I could excuse, if they had gotten Danny right.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.

I absolutely despised this punisher plot. He is even more of a caricature than normal, and the whole story is just...Miller levels of untra-violent fan wank.

The courtroom drama was excellent, though, as was the development of the three ninja characters. IMO, it could lose Punisher completely and be a substantially better season.

EDIT: I also loved the stairway fight. It wasn't as "hard to watch" as some parts of s1 were, but did just as good a job of reminding the viewer that his only superpower is his blind "sight", and some good training, and that his perseverance is meant to be thoroughly human. I love watching this Daredevil fight exhausting battles and just grimace and keep going. It's like rocky with less cheesy music.

I will admit that by the end of the Punisher story, I didn't want him to die and never be heard from again, so I'm optimistic that the show will be good.

 

[Ryujin]

I have to admit, I'm really enjoying Iron Fist so far (eps 1-7). My intent was to hate-watch the first episode, but that didn't pan out. It's not good neo-noir like Daredevil, or art like Jessica Jones, and that's okay. For what it's worth, I'm burning through IF at a much faster pace then either DD or JJ.

Colleen Wing is good, Joy & Ward Meachum are, somewhat surprisingly, better, and Danny's Earnest Clueless Zen Trust Fund style is strangely disarming. Plus, RZA directed an episode, and as everyone knows Wu-Tang ain't nuttin' to... ahem.

As for The Unbearable Whiteness of Being Danny Rand... no one would suggest fixing a banker character by making them Jewish. At least I hope not. Same principle applies here.

You don't fix a lack of diversity by embracing old ethnic stereotypes. I say this as someone who was called "Kato", "Grasshopper", and "Bruce Lee" more than my share of times as a kid.

As far as Danny Rand's demeanour and dialogue I just had to remember that he had stopped his Western cultural development at pre-teen, and that got me over the expectation of hearing Shakespeare soliloquies out of him. That made it much more enjoyable as simple consumable entertainment.

 

[Ryujin]

I absolutely despised this punisher plot. He is even more of a caricature than normal, and the whole story is just...Miller levels of untra-violent fan wank.

The courtroom drama was excellent, though, as was the development of the three ninja characters. IMO, it could lose Punisher completely and be a substantially better season.

EDIT: I also loved the stairway fight. It wasn't as "hard to watch" as some parts of s1 were, but did just as good a job of reminding the viewer that his only superpower is his blind "sight", and some good training, and that his perseverance is meant to be thoroughly human. I love watching this Daredevil fight exhausting battles and just grimace and keep going. It's like rocky with less cheesy music.

I will admit that by the end of the Punisher story, I didn't want him to die and never be heard from again, so I'm optimistic that the show will be good.

In Daredevil they did a very good job of showing Matt to be his father the boxer's son, layering in in over the martial arts training.