D&D 5E Revamped Ability Score Bonuses

[Capn Charlie]

I've been wrestling with ability scores lately, and it has gotten me to thinking that a few tweaks to what they "do" outside of skills could make 5e a lot nicer. Now, I know that sacred cows are sacred cows, and this won't happen, but if I hung the stars, this might be how I'd do it...

Strength: Carrying capacity, damage bonus with all weapon attacks (melee and ranged)

Dex: AC, attack bonus with all weapon attacks (melee and ranged)

Con: HP per level, general endurance type checks (breath holding, starvation, so on)

Int: Initiative, speed at learning languages and tool proficiencies

Wisdom: Passive perception (and insight if you are so inclined) are pretty powerful, as well as a host of saves and skills make this a fine ability score, but it still seems dumpstat-y to me.

Charisma: I would like to integrate a follower and loyalty system in the game core to make more use of this, but it is really just good for "face" type characters. That might be fine, actually, given how many spellcasting classes use this as their spellcasting attribute. Maybe force more "party charisma checks" to bring back reaction bonus? I dunno.


Further, I like the idea of doing away with the actual ability score, and letting the ability just be the bonus.
Abilities would range from -1 to +4 for a 6 point spread allowing people to roll a d6 for ability scores if they are so inclined.

I like 5e, I like it a lot, but progress is always looking forward. How do you think an ability score system like this might work within the framework of 5e in general?

 

[phantomK9]

I hate to constantly go to the True20 well, but.......True20 actually did a lot of the things you are suggesting.
They did away with ability scores and just used the bonus. Characters started with +0 to +3 and could eventually raise it. Personally I really like using Str for all damage and Dex for all to hit.

Honestly my wish list of changes would be to take the sacred cows of ability scores, and rather than just put them in a pretty pin and look at them, to actually do something with them, more than just being used to determine the ability mod bonus. What that is I haven't been able to figure out yet for my game.

I have seen some people suggesting changes to make odd ability scores more useful.

 

[Oofta]

For a straight -1 thru +4 instead of stats, the issue becomes feats that give a +1 to a stat and something else. You'd also have to balance out human starting adjustments. There may be an odd spell or effect out there that I'm not thinking of as well. Not a show-stopper, just something to consider.

Dex is kind of an uber-stat in 5E, giving way to more high dex fighter types than makes sense to me.

However, the way I decided to deal with it was not by changing existing rules but by adding to the game. So I allow people to buy reinforced bows (basically bows with a really heavy draw weight) that allows someone to add a +1 to +5 to their attack and damage depending on their strength.

In addition, I regularly throw skill checks that emphasize the other skills. So investigation checks to recognize the symbol on the bad guy's chest, athletics checks to climb or move objects and so on. Sometimes I have an acrobatics followed by an athletics check (with advantage and at a lower DC) to climb. I try to be careful about not punishing a character build just because I think it's silly that a fighter would have an 8 strength.

I try to mix it up and ensure that it's not always the wizard doing the investigation and the barbarian doing the athletics (although sometimes I do play to their strengths because I like to reward my players for playing the character they want).

If I were to change things, I'd do something with the physical attributes. Dexterity without strength only goes so far. A gymnast may not be able to bench press as much as a powerlifter, but they aren't wimps by any stretch of the imagination. An archer that can only pull a 10 pound bow is not going to do much damage no matter how good an aim they are.

Maybe have a minimum strength for ranged attacks? Subtract strength modifier from ranged attacks if you have a strength penalty? Not sure.

Similar with constitution. If con is your dump stat you're probably disadvantaged in the HP department anyway.

 

[discosoc]

I would love to go back to the 2e method for dealing with these things. Ability checks were just rolling equal or under your score. Skills were optional, and ideally the DM just let you succeed at stuff that wasn't specifically mentioned elsewhere (bending bars, etc), or roll an ability check if absolutely needed. Sometimes it feels like the 3e skill system was more of an answer to classic 'class-based-vs-skill-based' arguments of the 90's rather than a solution to a problem that needed solving.

 

[Ed Laprade]

My main peeve is that Wisdom should be changed to Will Power, then we'd know what it is actually good for. But that will never happen.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Honestly my wish list of changes would be to take the sacred cows of ability scores, and rather than just put them in a pretty pin and look at them, to actually do something with them, more than just being used to determine the ability mod bonus. What that is I haven't been able to figure out yet for my game.

I have seen some people suggesting changes to make odd ability scores more useful.

Bonus = score - 10. That puts the bonus on the same scale as the score itself, and means you can just roll attacks and checks using the target's score as the DC. Also becomes mathematically equivalent to the old "roll under" system, so you can use that if it suits your fancy.

 

[Capn Charlie]

I hate to constantly go to the True20 well, but.......True20 actually did a lot of the things you are suggesting.
They did away with ability scores and just used the bonus. Characters started with +0 to +3 and could eventually raise it. Personally I really like using Str for all damage and Dex for all to hit.

Honestly my wish list of changes would be to take the sacred cows of ability scores, and rather than just put them in a pretty pin and look at them, to actually do something with them, more than just being used to determine the ability mod bonus. What that is I haven't been able to figure out yet for my game.

I have seen some people suggesting changes to make odd ability scores more useful.

Right now I am playing with the concept for another 5e mod that might do something in this vein. Odd ability scores unlock new capabilities, even add bonuses.

For a straight -1 thru +4 instead of stats, the issue becomes feats that give a +1 to a stat and something else. You'd also have to balance out human starting adjustments. There may be an odd spell or effect out there that I'm not thinking of as well. Not a show-stopper, just something to consider.

Dex is kind of an uber-stat in 5E, giving way to more high dex fighter types than makes sense to me.

However, the way I decided to deal with it was not by changing existing rules but by adding to the game. So I allow people to buy reinforced bows (basically bows with a really heavy draw weight) that allows someone to add a +1 to +5 to their attack and damage depending on their strength.

In addition, I regularly throw skill checks that emphasize the other skills. So investigation checks to recognize the symbol on the bad guy's chest, athletics checks to climb or move objects and so on. Sometimes I have an acrobatics followed by an athletics check (with advantage and at a lower DC) to climb. I try to be careful about not punishing a character build just because I think it's silly that a fighter would have an 8 strength.

I try to mix it up and ensure that it's not always the wizard doing the investigation and the barbarian doing the athletics (although sometimes I do play to their strengths because I like to reward my players for playing the character they want).

If I were to change things, I'd do something with the physical attributes. Dexterity without strength only goes so far. A gymnast may not be able to bench press as much as a powerlifter, but they aren't wimps by any stretch of the imagination. An archer that can only pull a 10 pound bow is not going to do much damage no matter how good an aim they are.

Maybe have a minimum strength for ranged attacks? Subtract strength modifier from ranged attacks if you have a strength penalty? Not sure.

Similar with constitution. If con is your dump stat you're probably disadvantaged in the HP department anyway.

I hadn't thought about the feats, I had forgotten so many of the base ones were only half feats. I have been wanting to see them all toned down or buffed to equality (without the +1 abil.) for a while.

I would love to go back to the 2e method for dealing with these things. Ability checks were just rolling equal or under your score. Skills were optional, and ideally the DM just let you succeed at stuff that wasn't specifically mentioned elsewhere (bending bars, etc), or roll an ability check if absolutely needed. Sometimes it feels like the 3e skill system was more of an answer to classic 'class-based-vs-skill-based' arguments of the 90's rather than a solution to a problem that needed solving.

As much as I can see the allure in simplicity, I just hate the idea that a strong first level fighter straight off the farm has the same chance to succeed at something as a high level adventurer who has been practicing for years. Proficiency bonus seems like an elegant middle ground compared to skill point systems.

My main peeve is that Wisdom should be changed to Will Power, then we'd know what it is actually good for. But that will never happen.

At one point I almost named it Insight. It is a hard ability score. The last time I tinkered with the high end of a system I had the following scores: Body (physical toughness and strength), Agility (speed and dexterity), Spirit (wisdom, morale, spirituality, willpower). Mind (magical skill, expertise) and the wildcard attribute luck which did dice related things.

Bonus = score - 10. That puts the bonus on the same scale as the score itself, and means you can just roll attacks and checks using the target's score as the DC. Also becomes mathematically equivalent to the old "roll under" system, so you can use that if it suits your fancy.

Interesting. I like it. It would require some rejiggering of numbers to maintain bounded accuracy, but it certainly makes every point matter. If you left numbers as is and did character generation off of 20 or 22 point buy it could generate some very neat characters.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Interesting. I like it. It would require some rejiggering of numbers to maintain bounded accuracy, but it certainly makes every point matter. If you left numbers as is and did character generation off of 20 or 22 point buy it could generate some very neat characters.

Yeah, the problem with messing with this math is that the whole system really needs to be rebuilt around it.

 

[Capn Charlie]

Upon further consideration I am thinking about dropping AC from ability scores altogether, and letting con's bonus to HP be the "survivability" ability score, and let it function abstractly through HP.

 

[Grazzt]

Bonus = score - 10. That puts the bonus on the same scale as the score itself, and means you can just roll attacks and checks using the target's score as the DC. Also becomes mathematically equivalent to the old "roll under" system, so you can use that if it suits your fancy.

With a little reworking of the numbers, you could potentially expand this to combat as well. Attack roll = 1d20 + (ability score - 10) vs. target's Dex score (and maybe + shield). Have to figure out how armor worked in this system (maybe it works as DR instead of adding to your AC or something).