D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah. Something at all would help. Not that the champion concept is bad...
I would love something extra for the champion at low level and when we are at it, a small feature for the frenzied berserker would also help.

I would like some non combat feature which the battlemaster can never obtain.

 

[Xeviat]

Yeah. Something at all would help. Not that the champion concept is bad...

...

I would like some non combat feature which the battlemaster can never obtain.

The concept is fine. But it just isn't trying hard enough to be comparable. What would you think? Would buffing Remarkable Athlete to being half expertise to Str/Dex/Con be enough for you?


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[UngeheuerLich]

The concept is fine. But it just isn't trying hard enough to be comparable. What would you think? Would buffing Remarkable Athlete to being half expertise to Str/Dex/Con be enough for you?


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No. It needs to be a buff at level 3. I'd also rather have a bonus on perception or some team buffing bonus. Like while a champion is guarding you you regain extra hit dice or so.

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[Xeviat]

What are some things they used to get back in 2E?


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[Satyrn]

In what way? The nerf bat? More options?

Not nerfing, certainly. But you've misinterpreted me. I don't even think the battlemaster needs more.

It's just I don't think spellcasters needs more when they already have so much more. But if someone's gonna give them more, I think they really ought to give more to every class - well, at least every class (or subclass) that is meant to have complexity.



And as an aside, I think the thread that wanted to expand warlock and sorcerer spell selection would wreck the point of those classes. But I also think the thread that likely spurred this thread here - giving wizards a beefier spellbook - is a reasonable idea and keeps to the point of the wizard - but if he was to do so, I would think he ought to give the battlemaster more maneuvers.

Oh, but on topic:

A fine boost for a Champion, I think, would be to rename Remarkable Athlete to something else (Well-rounded, maybe) and have it grant a +2 bonus to all ability checks. Period. It means he'll be even better at the stuff he's good at, and feel decent at all the social stuff he might want to try, too. And they player can still ignore everything involving rules-mechanics. Maybe boost it to +4 later.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am still thinking about Casters vs Non-Casters. That's a side thing..
In recent threads about class balance, inevitably someone shows up and laments the poor Champion Fighter and it's place in the world. So, let's discuss it.
.

Windmills of ENWorld, take cover, Xeviat's got it in for you! ;P

The Champion appeals to an old school style. That's fine. But it should still be comparable to the other Fighters.

It's comparable, there really isn't that much to a fighter archetype, a fighter with no archetype wouldn't exactly be worthless.

So, the Champion is easier to compare against the battle master...
Also, this does further convince me that the Battle Master has too many Superiority dice at low levels. But I'd hate to take away from them.

Remember, you're comparing sub-classes of the least versatile class in the game, there is no 'too many.' The BM doesn't have too much or too many of anything, the Champion has too little in the name of simplicity. The Champion is just a low-investment/agency sub-class for players who don't want to do that much in the first place, for whatever reason.

One simple buff to the Champion is to make RA stack with proficiency. Just like that, he's got some bigger numbers in and out of combat to pull stuff with.

 

[Satyrn]

Windmills of ENWorld, take cover, Xeviat's got it in for you! ;P

Are you calling me fat?

 

[Hayato]

A GWM Fighter deals more damage than GWM Battle Master. At high lvls, you can crit 3x more. Let's make a calcule:

- 20 on die = GWM Champion deals 4d6+5 + one attack as bonus action (2d6+5). GWM Battle Master deals 4d6+5 +2d12 (maneuvers) + one attack as bonus action and 1d12 as maneuvers.
- 19 on die = GWM Champion deals 4d6+5 + one attack as bonus action (2d6+5). GWM Battle Master deals 2d6+5 +1d12 (maneuvers).
- 18 on die = GWM Champion deals 4d6+5 + one attack as bonus action (2d6+5). GWM Battle Master deals 2d6+5 +1d12 (maneuvers).
- 17 on die = GWM Champion deals 2d6+5. GWM Battle Master deals 2d6+5 +1d12 (maneuvers).
- 16 on die = GWM Champion deals 2d6+5. GWM Battle Master deals 2d6+5 +1d12 (maneuvers).
- 14 and rest will be the same (2d6+5) for both.

In the end, GWM Champion deals 323 damage and GWM Battle Master deals 317. Battle Master need a short rest to go on damage, but Champion don't. I'm ignoring that Champion have a chance to crit on bonus attack dealing more damage. So yes, Champion deal more damage than BM.

 

[Zardnaar]

The main problem with the fighter is to many of its abilities are late in the progression ie after level 10. The 4th attack, ability to action surge more than 1/ short rests the indomitable thing. I found a 3pp feat called weapon specialisation just wondering if swapping out action surge for it might be an idea.

 

[Satyrn]

The main problem with the fighter is to many of its abilities are late in the progression ie after level 10. The 4th attack, ability to action surge more than 1/ short rests the indomitable thing. I found a 3pp feat called weapon specialisation just wondering if swapping out action surge for it might be an idea.

That could make sense. Not that I have a clue what the feat does.