D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

On the notion of character clones.

I'm rather baffled by this actually. Ok, Standard Array means that every character has the same 6 stats, arranged differently. And, to be fair, similar classes will have pretty similar stats. Not exact, mind you, but probably close.

But, so what? Two fighters, for example, are identical in all other ways and that doesn't seem to cause any issues. Same HP, same saving throws, and all characters with the same stats have identical skill bonuses. Why doesn't that blow your mind?

Why is every fighter proficient in the same selection of skills? Why do they all have identical good saves? Why all the same hit dice? No one ever learns skills faster than anyone else? My fighter's proficiency bonus is the same as yours after all. Why doesn't that bother you? If it's all about your interpretation of realism and how the characters should be natural, then why is it only stats that seem to break your suspension of disbelief?

After all, why can't my fighter be proficient in, say, Religion? No fighter (granted I'm ignoring backgrounds for the moment here, just class) can ever learn about the gods? How is that "realistic"? How is it realistic that every fighter will have d10 HP and know how to use every suit of armor and weapons?

I guess I just have a real problem with the level of cherry picking people seem to do when justifying their preference. I prefer standard array (and grudgingly allow point buy) simply because it makes sense to me. It means that everyone starts from the same baseline and no one is gaining advantages or disadvantages purely through the luck of the dice. I wouldn't tell the groups to all roll a d20 and the person with the highest roll gains a level either. That's just as fair as die rolling characters but, it wouldn't be any fun for me or my group. To me, standard array makes the game run the most smoothly, so, I prefer it.

 

[Maxperson]

Go here to roll a bunch of 4d6-L, the site is self explanatory https://dicelog.com/dice


The stats you roll are not nearly as good some people think they are. If you just keep rolling eventually you will get a great array. The problem isn't rolling for stats, its rolling 50+ times until you get a very good one.

So here's the thing. Even high stats are not a problem. The game is very flexible and can easily handle 6 PCs with straight 18s if you wanted to run a game like that. High stats can't break the game. The stats generated randomly by 6 people are just fine, unless you have a personal problem with rolling.

 

[Yardiff]

That's interesting that you rolled 5 numbers below 8 but not a single number above 15, sad but can happen.

 

[Hussar]

So here's the thing. Even high stats are not a problem. The game is very flexible and can easily handle 6 PCs with straight 18s if you wanted to run a game like that. High stats can't break the game. The stats generated randomly by 6 people are just fine, unless you have a personal problem with rolling.

But, that's not really the issue. The issue is 1 PC with straight 18's and 4 PC's with average stats, and 1 PC with toilet stats. And no, the game does not particularly handle that very well.

 

[Hussar]

That's interesting that you rolled 5 numbers below 8 but not a single number above 15, sad but can happen.

Thing is, and let's be honest, 2 of those characters (numbers 2 and 4) will almost never hit the table. They just won't in my experience. Or, if they do, they quickly commit suicide by orc. But, even if they do get used, the spread between PC 2 and PC 5 is HUGE. Certainly a level's worth of difference.

Is it fair in the sense that everyone had the same chances? Sure. I'll agree with that. Is it fun that Bob's playing a character that is at least a level higher than me, succeeds far more often than me and is generally more effective than I am at pretty much everything we do? Yeah, not so much.

 

[Maxperson]

On the notion of character clones.

I'm rather baffled by this actually. Ok, Standard Array means that every character has the same 6 stats, arranged differently. And, to be fair, similar classes will have pretty similar stats. Not exact, mind you, but probably close.

But, so what? Two fighters, for example, are identical in all other ways and that doesn't seem to cause any issues. Same HP, same saving throws, and all characters with the same stats have identical skill bonuses. Why doesn't that blow your mind?

Why is every fighter proficient in the same selection of skills? Why do they all have identical good saves? Why all the same hit dice? No one ever learns skills faster than anyone else? My fighter's proficiency bonus is the same as yours after all. Why doesn't that bother you? If it's all about your interpretation of realism and how the characters should be natural, then why is it only stats that seem to break your suspension of disbelief?

After all, why can't my fighter be proficient in, say, Religion? No fighter (granted I'm ignoring backgrounds for the moment here, just class) can ever learn about the gods? How is that "realistic"? How is it realistic that every fighter will have d10 HP and know how to use every suit of armor and weapons?

I guess I just have a real problem with the level of cherry picking people seem to do when justifying their preference. I prefer standard array (and grudgingly allow point buy) simply because it makes sense to me. It means that everyone starts from the same baseline and no one is gaining advantages or disadvantages purely through the luck of the dice. I wouldn't tell the groups to all roll a d20 and the person with the highest roll gains a level either. That's just as fair as die rolling characters but, it wouldn't be any fun for me or my group. To me, standard array makes the game run the most smoothly, so, I prefer it.

That's a False Dichotomy. We don't have to be upset with every bit of uniformity that the game gives us, or be okay with all uniformity. Realism is in grades, not all or nothing. There's nothing wrong with people being okay with all that you just posted EXCEPT for rolling. Or maybe we don't like all that uniformity and change more, like I did in 3e when I decided that cross-class was unrealistic and axed it. Then I decided 2 points was BS and gave a minimum of 4 skill points. I expected all PCs to have in game reasons for any skill learned, but every skill was on the table.

 

[Maxperson]

But, that's not really the issue. The issue is 1 PC with straight 18's and 4 PC's with average stats, and 1 PC with toilet stats. And no, the game does not particularly handle that very well.

That's still just a personal problem and not a game problem. I have no difficulty at all running a game with a wide spread in stats.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

After reading the first 10 pages to get the gist of this conversation, I apologise if the following's been said somewhere else in the last 136 pages...

The attractiveness of rolling vs. point buy (or standard array) for PCs stats is always going to be a personal choice for any gamer and gaming group. However, point buy has two key advantages over rolling for stats. These are certainty and equity.

There is a fundamental principle of game design that randomness works against players and certainty works for players. This is particularly the case in the long run - as for a character planned to be played over an entire campaign. When you think about it, every part of the mechanical design of a character is about maximising the likelihood that the outcome of random dice rolls are to the character's advantage. Basically, the whole metagame is about decreasing randomness/increasing certainty. Point buy provides greater certainty to players, both at initial character generation, and through stat influence on most other dice rolls in the game, throughout a character's life.

Point buy also achieves greater equity between characters (and players) than rolling for stats. (Note "equity" is about outcomes, not process. Every player rolling 3d6 for each stat, in order, is "fair" to the players, but the outcome is highly unlikely to be equitable as between the players without some further manipulation).

Whether the increases in certainty and equity that arise from using point buy outweigh other aspects of what makes gaming enjoyable is, of course, up to the individual.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Oofta]

That's still just a personal problem and not a game problem. I have no difficulty at all running a game with a wide spread in stats.

Yet several people have stated they have a problem playing in such a game (and I wouldn't want to DM one either). Is that so hard to accept? It's not a matter of "competition", it's about one PC being significantly "blessed" for no reason other than a one time roll of the dice.

Saying "it's a personal problem" is quite insulting.

 

[Hussar]

That's still just a personal problem and not a game problem. I have no difficulty at all running a game with a wide spread in stats.

Ah, that's what I missed. The snide superiority. It's not really a problem, it's just that those who don't like die rolling are just incompetent. Hrm, I've now been called immature AND incompetent in the past page or two.

And you wonder why you are getting so much push back. I mean, the worst I've seen said about die rollers is that they want higher than standard array stats. And funnily enough, virtually no one has contradicted that. You, yourself, use a very generous die rolling system that results in higher stats.

But, if I don't like die rolling, I'm an incompetent, immature player who just can't handle the system.

Now I remember why I unsubbed this thread a while back.