Imaro
Legend
Have any of these in the 5e era... or even the 4e era gotten as much page count devoted to them as Chult has with this adventure?
D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?
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Have any of these in the 5e era... or even the 4e era gotten as much page count devoted to them as Chult has with this adventure?
I think the post you replied to - and some other posts in this thread - are adopting a type of "in fiction" perspective, when the issue that the article is discussing is a real-world issue, about the real-world significance or implications of what is said (or not said/depicted) in the WotC material.
That "in fiction" perspective almost becomes something like a smokescreen to discussing the article itself.
Do you think that's a fair take?
Parmandur
Book-Friend
In the text for the Human race entry, the picture for the Human race entry is a Turami woman, Fighter picture, Wizard picture and several other Turami in the art. Also I'm the various APs, there are a number of Turami NPCs.
Imaro
Legend
I agree that this does seem to be one of the issues at work here. Now honesty as a black gamer whose group is a mix of black and latino/latina players I was really trying to stay out of this discussion because I've been in discussions like this and inevitably they leave me feeling disappointed in a community I always thought would be more open minded and accepting of everyone... but here's a couple of problems I am seeing with this discussion overall...
1. "Nitpicking & pedantry", Trying to use the situation of the author getting some of the facts wrong as a reason to discredit or invalidate the bigger issue...
2. "But what about syndrome", Trying to use the fact that stereotypes and bad choices have been made for other cultural or ethnic groups (and those specific ones aren't being called our by the author to again dismiss or belittle the importance of the issues that were called out.
3. "Racesplaining", This is hilarious (in a not funny but do you realize the irony way) to me because it's basically when the white males in a group want to tell you how you as a people should or shouldn't group yourselves... i.e. blacks in america aren't all one community or group...people of color refers to so many disparate groups that it's meaning less. Like really do you hear yourself, once again you're trying to exert control and define a people you aren't even a member of.
4. "But there's more to the Realms"... Yes and? Did the author review a Realms sourcebook? Bringing up the fact that the Realms has other black or African based cultural groups does nothing to address the problems with those in ToA and Chult. This is where WotC decided to set this adventure and this is the african-esque culture they chose to flesh out. The fact that the author of the article isn't a Realms expert and thinks this is the only african-esque culture doesn't take away from the points raised about it.
5. "A black isn't a guarantee"... No it isn't because nothing in this world is 100% and bringing up your one culturally unaware black friend as the example is an anecdote that means nothing (and is actually kind of insulting)... because there's also the very real chance that WotC does hire a black person who is culturally aware (I mean wouldn't that be what they were looking for in a consultant for this type of project?) and is able to make changes in their adventure that make it not just more culturally sensitive but a better all around book.
6. "(racist)Stereotypes vs. Knowledge"... You spoke to this one but I just want to reiterate... racist stereotypes and caricatures of african culture in fantasy aren't based in knowledge... they are the exact opposite of having real knowledge and were fabricated mostly during the pulp era. Claiming designers shouldn't be called out for falling back on them since they are using the knowledge they have is a cop out, plain and simple.
7. "Do it yourself"... No, just no this is a dishonest way of trying to dismiss the validity of issues being brought up. Movie critics, videogame critics, literary critics, sports commentators and so on are all people who critique things they don't necessarily do... but for some reason if someone want to critique this adventure with a cultural/racial focus... they should instead be writing their own supplements? when someone submits a non-favorable review of an rpg on this site I don't see the same people telling them to go write their own if they think the product has faults r isn't a good one, why is this different.
I'm trying to keep myself from ranting but I've seen all of the above in this thread and the fact of the matter is none of these actually addresses the issues the author brought up in the article.
Imaro
Legend
I'm asking where is what a Turami is...explained? When someone says featured I would think a little background, blurb or something describing the culture would be in the PHB and i don't remember seeing that. Now don't get me wrong I think the PHB is pretty diverse but unless they point out this culture and explain it for the FR's I'm not sure it's all that relevant to point out that there are pictures of them in the PHB (And even if they do have some background on them in the PHB), not sure how that addresses the specific issue with Chult...
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On substantive issues of RPGing I know we often do not agree. But this is not the first time I've seen you participate in one of these threads, and I respect and value your participation.
I am white, but for various reasons have both personal and intellectual connections to these issues about the way race is dealt with in RPGing material (and other fictional works). At the intellectual level I share your disappointment with some of these threads; at the personal level - because I'm white - they don't have the same effect on me. I wouldn't blame you for just ignoring them - the RPG version of "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race".
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Well, maybe "featured" us a bit strong, then; the extent of the write-up is in the names section for humans, same as any other ethnicity included. Doesn't really excuse the oddity of BlackManLand in ToA, yo be honest.
Imaro
Legend
Thanks [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]... and just so you know, while I know we butt heads about methodology and playstyle... alot, lol... I have always respected your opinions and found posting back and forth with you engaging. As for threads like these I feel they're a good thing for the hobby in general but just draining for me when I'm reading them so I'll tend to post sporadically in them mainly because it takes a lot for me to get over the feeling that it's a waste of time and to instead muster the desire to engage properly with them.
Note I am going to start this by saying I came late to the party and have not read every post but I a few pages at least.
So I concur with the statement a ways back that states it is Lazy -- but then D&D has always been rather lazy or just surface glossing (or as subsequent versions came out mere copy/pasting) but this might have something to do with market value you get paid 100% for 50% of the work or you can get paid 100% for 95% of the work so it is cheaper to sell the 50% and call it a day.
This half-effort is every where and not just in the terms of racial stereotyping but in the aspect of the economy and such. D&D is a world filled with magic but this magic has had next to no impact on the world economy at large other than being sprinkled in as tools of war. Now if you take a serious look at magic and then equate that to advancements in science, there should have had a magical revolution at some point in time prior to now. What I mean by magical revolution is basically our historical industrial revolution -- I mean it seems to me that magic would have created a society that used it many, many interestingly mundane ways. I mean the rich would have paid for a large box with a door that keeps everything you put into cold, or a squat square stone box with a door that cooks whatever you put into it -- (aka a refrigerator and an oven/microwave) both of these magic items could have been built with the use of minor magics. Of course in 5e they nerfed the heck out of making magic items and just state (unbelievably lazily) that how to make magic items has been forgotten ?? wait why ?? no explanation.
As for copy/paste laziness that has perpetuated since the beginning as they still have not fixed Phantasmal Force. It is still (for some strange reason) considered an illusion when by its own definition it is "Mind Affecting Magic" and by their own definition mind affecting magics are Enchantments -- so why is it an Illusion because way back in 1st Edition it was dubbed an Illusion and it is a whole lot easier to copy/paste that stuff than sit down and figure out if it is correct or not and should be adjusted and that is only one miss-themed spell there were numerous ones (some got cut from 5e -- not sure why exactly perhaps less headache but you would think if they were going to hand pick the spells they would have at least vetted them for consistency purposes but not the case to much effort)
Still they did dump more work into something that did not require it -- they created an elaborate Dragon Breath for the Dragonborn rather than just patterning it off of Cantrips and tweaking them a smidge to make them actually viably useful rather than the near why bother that many seem to feel it is.
What about adventures -- heck those have been plagued since the beginning with why-fors and what-this basically it is a published adventure that came up with the concept of you have an Orc in a 10x10 room guarding a chest. For absolutely no reason, and in a dungeon that is supposed to be ancient. Now maybe it is not exactly that example but very similar, I have often asked -- why is that there (often the thing seems way out of place and I replace it) -- how is that there (are there any issues that I need to address because they are not covered like how does that thing sustain itself -- aka food/drink .... a simple thing but not something avid players do not notice when you actually do cross your T's and dot your I's )
So yes D&D is and always has been lazy about their approach to building worlds and adventures -- but it is what it is and the beauty of it is that at least it gives you the ground work for something to then build upon -- you want a culture that is more reflective of your view of an African community then you build one yourself -- if you want to promote this in the D&D community at large you post it to a forum and/or create a blog page. If its good and interesting word gets out and folks come and absorb what you have put forth into their campaigns and eventually maybe the D&D world decides they like what you put out there and either copy it in a way that is not considered plagiaristic (assuming you posted a copyright memo to the public posting to begin with) or they buy the rights to it.
Now just complaining about something -- that ironically is actually lazier than producing what the D&D folks have produced -- so all I have to say to the critics of this sort is -- if you do not like it then make something better and put it out there and then complain about the D&D that is when you have posted this more in-depth look at whatever it is you felt the system was lacking. To do anything short of that is to be a bigger part of the problem rather than any part of the solution.
Note : Everything I have posted an example about I have addressed since 2nd Edition and it is still applicable to 3.5 Edition/Pathfinder -- did not do anything with 4e as I found that an uninteresting system. And while 5e is much more like 3.5e than 4e was there are still enough significant changes that some of these changes are not worth it for me (time wise) to use my fixes on anymore as they would require significant work while some do not require much work at all and those I will port over. Of the new stuff I am fixing the issue with Racial Bonuses and making sure the races are balanced as well as fixing the Dragon Breath thing so it is useful and looking at the Backgrounds in order to streamline them a bit more and make them easier to use.
So I concur with the statement a ways back that states it is Lazy -- but then D&D has always been rather lazy or just surface glossing (or as subsequent versions came out mere copy/pasting) but this might have something to do with market value you get paid 100% for 50% of the work or you can get paid 100% for 95% of the work so it is cheaper to sell the 50% and call it a day.
This half-effort is every where and not just in the terms of racial stereotyping but in the aspect of the economy and such. D&D is a world filled with magic but this magic has had next to no impact on the world economy at large other than being sprinkled in as tools of war. Now if you take a serious look at magic and then equate that to advancements in science, there should have had a magical revolution at some point in time prior to now. What I mean by magical revolution is basically our historical industrial revolution -- I mean it seems to me that magic would have created a society that used it many, many interestingly mundane ways. I mean the rich would have paid for a large box with a door that keeps everything you put into cold, or a squat square stone box with a door that cooks whatever you put into it -- (aka a refrigerator and an oven/microwave) both of these magic items could have been built with the use of minor magics. Of course in 5e they nerfed the heck out of making magic items and just state (unbelievably lazily) that how to make magic items has been forgotten ?? wait why ?? no explanation.
As for copy/paste laziness that has perpetuated since the beginning as they still have not fixed Phantasmal Force. It is still (for some strange reason) considered an illusion when by its own definition it is "Mind Affecting Magic" and by their own definition mind affecting magics are Enchantments -- so why is it an Illusion because way back in 1st Edition it was dubbed an Illusion and it is a whole lot easier to copy/paste that stuff than sit down and figure out if it is correct or not and should be adjusted and that is only one miss-themed spell there were numerous ones (some got cut from 5e -- not sure why exactly perhaps less headache but you would think if they were going to hand pick the spells they would have at least vetted them for consistency purposes but not the case to much effort)
Still they did dump more work into something that did not require it -- they created an elaborate Dragon Breath for the Dragonborn rather than just patterning it off of Cantrips and tweaking them a smidge to make them actually viably useful rather than the near why bother that many seem to feel it is.
What about adventures -- heck those have been plagued since the beginning with why-fors and what-this basically it is a published adventure that came up with the concept of you have an Orc in a 10x10 room guarding a chest. For absolutely no reason, and in a dungeon that is supposed to be ancient. Now maybe it is not exactly that example but very similar, I have often asked -- why is that there (often the thing seems way out of place and I replace it) -- how is that there (are there any issues that I need to address because they are not covered like how does that thing sustain itself -- aka food/drink .... a simple thing but not something avid players do not notice when you actually do cross your T's and dot your I's )
So yes D&D is and always has been lazy about their approach to building worlds and adventures -- but it is what it is and the beauty of it is that at least it gives you the ground work for something to then build upon -- you want a culture that is more reflective of your view of an African community then you build one yourself -- if you want to promote this in the D&D community at large you post it to a forum and/or create a blog page. If its good and interesting word gets out and folks come and absorb what you have put forth into their campaigns and eventually maybe the D&D world decides they like what you put out there and either copy it in a way that is not considered plagiaristic (assuming you posted a copyright memo to the public posting to begin with) or they buy the rights to it.
Now just complaining about something -- that ironically is actually lazier than producing what the D&D folks have produced -- so all I have to say to the critics of this sort is -- if you do not like it then make something better and put it out there and then complain about the D&D that is when you have posted this more in-depth look at whatever it is you felt the system was lacking. To do anything short of that is to be a bigger part of the problem rather than any part of the solution.
Note : Everything I have posted an example about I have addressed since 2nd Edition and it is still applicable to 3.5 Edition/Pathfinder -- did not do anything with 4e as I found that an uninteresting system. And while 5e is much more like 3.5e than 4e was there are still enough significant changes that some of these changes are not worth it for me (time wise) to use my fixes on anymore as they would require significant work while some do not require much work at all and those I will port over. Of the new stuff I am fixing the issue with Racial Bonuses and making sure the races are balanced as well as fixing the Dragon Breath thing so it is useful and looking at the Backgrounds in order to streamline them a bit more and make them easier to use.
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Iosue
Legend
FWIW, this is the write up on the Turmish people in the PHB (and Basic Rules). I put it here not to validate or invalidate anyone's arguments, but in the interest of providing fuller information:
TURAMI
Native to the southern shore of the Inner Sea, the Turami people are generally tall and muscular, with dark mahogany skin, curly black hair, and dark eyes.
Turami Names:
(Male) Anton, Diero, Marcon, Pieron, Rimardo, Romero, Salazar, Umbero; (female) Balama, Dona, Faila, Jalana, Luisa, Marta, Quara, Selise, Vonda; (surnames) Agosto, Astorio, Calabra, Domine, Falone, Marivaldi, Pisacar, Ramondo
TURAMI
Native to the southern shore of the Inner Sea, the Turami people are generally tall and muscular, with dark mahogany skin, curly black hair, and dark eyes.
Turami Names:
(Male) Anton, Diero, Marcon, Pieron, Rimardo, Romero, Salazar, Umbero; (female) Balama, Dona, Faila, Jalana, Luisa, Marta, Quara, Selise, Vonda; (surnames) Agosto, Astorio, Calabra, Domine, Falone, Marivaldi, Pisacar, Ramondo
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