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Looking for Advanced Role-Playing Content

Celebrim

Legend
The emphasis is mine because I didn't specify a goal. I'm quite unsure where you came up with that.

I came up with the goal from 'The Tao of D&D', who in a recent article explained the purpose of revising dragons with the quote I used.

For one thing, the Tao of D&D isn't the same as AD&D. It stopped being AD&D years ago.

Respectfully, I disagree. The game is very recognizably AD&D and still draws heavily on AD&D material as source books and inspiration, for most of its terminology, it's classes and for the greater part of its rules. The game described therein is actually a relatively small departure from AD&D, and really no different from AD&D than 1e game heavily drawing from a couple of dozen Dragon articles for optional and extended rules. Indeed, so small is the departure from AD&D that I'm not even sure the described game could be properly described as a "fantasy heartbreaker". It's AD&D with a few personalized touches, many of which feel incomplete and not ready to be shared - as with many homebrewers, the vast majority of the rules appear to be stored in the DM's head.

It's certainly not as big of a departure as say Hackmaster, although I see some potential influences on the rules that might have their origin in that game.

However, I'm not certain that I would call it "advanced." That's probably something that needs a better definition to continue this conversation...

Probably so. For example, after browsing a couple of dozen pages on the site I have no idea from the collection of rules that I perused exactly what goals of play the rulesmith actually has. They don't appear to be realism, verisimilitude to setting, or balance. Indeed, a good portion of the rules are honestly regressions from typical 1e AD&D rules in those regards. Yet at the same time I see the use of division and other complex to apply concepts in the rules, which suggests the goal isn't playability either.
 

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Arilyn

Hero
Respectfully, I have to disagree. There are plenty of hobbies that receive far better treatment and deeper examination than you suggest D&D is capable of ~ many of them simpler at their core than D&D.

Mind you, we don't have to limit ourselves to one particular RPG. We can just as easily talk about how to make any RPG more advanced.

Lighter games can be deeper and more realistic. My assertion is that DnD, at its core, can't really support what you are looking for without vastly changing its structure. The magic is flakey, economies don't work, too much divine magic flying around, monsters around every corner...
Plunking a realistic medieval town in a DnD world, for example, would clash. There is nothing very medieval about DnD worlds.

If you are not looking for stronger simulation, then I'm not sure what you mean by a deeper game.
 

Simon T. Vesper

First Post
I came up with the goal from 'The Tao of D&D', who in a recent article explained the purpose of revising dragons with the quote I used.

Odd. I don't remember that.

Respectfully, I disagree. The game is very recognizably AD&D and still draws heavily on AD&D material as source books and inspiration, for most of its terminology, it's classes and for the greater part of its rules.

It does. And he's on record as stating that he won't reproduce the core rules from the books, for various reasons (not the least of which include copyright infringement). You are correct on two counts.

The game described therein is actually a relatively small departure from AD&D, and really no different from AD&D than 1e game heavily drawing from a couple of dozen Dragon articles for optional and extended rules.

This is clearly an inaccurate statement. He's written over 2,000 posts on his blog about the game, demonstrating the ability to deconstruct and analyze on a level I've encountered with but a handful of DMs. He's written over 1,000 posts for his rules Wiki ~ including a great many that drastically improve the game, including (but not limited to):

  • A combat system reminiscent of 3rd Edition (but much improved with a few key rules, specifically Stun Lock and Wounds).
  • A skill system that provides a vast array of options for the players, with appropriately in-depth rules, supported by research and solid design theory.
  • A world economy system that accounts for scarcity and demand, and that presents rational options to the players.
  • A technology/social development system ~ still in the works ~ that proves very promising where it comes to further defining the world.

Indeed, so small is the departure from AD&D that I'm not even sure the described game could be properly described as a "fantasy heartbreaker". It's AD&D with a few personalized touches, many of which feel incomplete and not ready to be shared - as with many homebrewers, the vast majority of the rules appear to be stored in the DM's head.

You come across as knowing an awful lot about his work. I find this confusing because, if you've read it before, you'd know that his game is far removed from AD&D, if only for the reasons I've provided; but if you haven't read it before, I'm struggling to understand how you could make these claims with only a day's notice.

Took me a year to get through his blog (in-between everything else in life), and that was four years ago...

It's certainly not as big of a departure as say Hackmaster, although I see some potential influences on the rules that might have their origin in that game.

If there is, it's entirely coincidence. He's written before about his influences and he's been adamant that other games have had little impact.

For example, after browsing a couple of dozen pages on the site I have no idea from the collection of rules that I perused exactly what goals of play the rulesmith actually has. They don't appear to be realism, verisimilitude to setting, or balance. Indeed, a good portion of the rules are honestly regressions from typical 1e AD&D rules in those regards. Yet at the same time I see the use of division and other complex to apply concepts in the rules, which suggests the goal isn't playability either.

I agree, these house rules aren't presented with a clearly defined paradigm. The blog has more details.

I recommend starting with this post: Seizing the Day. It captures a core paradigm which I believe should apply to all RPGs.

From there, I would direct potential readers to the following posts (in no particular order):

How to Dungeon Master (The 10,000 Word Post)
How to Play a Character (The 10,000 Word Post)
How to Start a Trading Town I
The Trade Process
How to Tackle a Dungeon I - First Steps
8 Tips That Will Let Any Idiot Improve Their Game
24 Petards to be Roasted Upon (or, How to be a Player)
The Art and Fall of Preparation
Weather System Mark VI - Temperature
Let's Try It Again From the Beginning
 

Simon T. Vesper

First Post
Lighter games can be deeper and more realistic. My assertion is that DnD, at its core, can't really support what you are looking for without vastly changing its structure. The magic is flakey, economies don't work, too much divine magic flying around, monsters around every corner...
Plunking a realistic medieval town in a DnD world, for example, would clash. There is nothing very medieval about DnD worlds.

If you are not looking for stronger simulation, then I'm not sure what you mean by a deeper game.

My response is similar: read the posts I've shared, consider what you can learn from them, and maybe that will help to clarify my meaning.
 


pemerton

Legend
Is there gaming content out there that matches (or exceeds) the quality or clarity of his work?

For example, I've been going through D&D podcasts lately, looking for in-depth analyses of the game. I'm talking about people discussing rules, paradigms, gaming philosophy, strategies, tactics, game design, etc. All I'm finding is people playing a story-telling game, which holds no interest for me. Are there podcasts that touch on these topics? Or is the Tao of D&D alone in exploring the game at this level?

<snip>

Who are the creators of advanced role-playing content? What have they made and where can we find it? Have you used their products; how did it benefit your game?
I don't know the blog you're referring to, but if you're not familiar with old Rolemaster or Spacemaster stuff (published by ICE) or old RuneQuest stuff (published by Chaosium) you might be interested in it. I think it was generally considered the more "advanced" stuff (in your sense) in its day. Quite a bit of RM and SpM is available on DriveThruRPG; I'm not sure about RQ material.

Chivalry & Sorcery might also have something to offer, but I don't know it as well and suspect that it is probably not as solid or interesting as RM and RQ. RQ is an extremely playable game. I think RM is also, but that view is more contentious!
 



Simon T. Vesper

First Post
I don't know the blog you're referring to, but if you're not familiar with old Rolemaster or Spacemaster stuff (published by ICE) or old RuneQuest stuff (published by Chaosium) you might be interested in it. I think it was generally considered the more "advanced" stuff (in your sense) in its day. Quite a bit of RM and SpM is available on DriveThruRPG; I'm not sure about RQ material.

I'm familiar with RM. They have a few good sourcebooks, like ...And a 10-Foot Pole. I used it to flesh out a list of resources for an economic system; freaking love it.

(Actually, I think my brother has a contributing credit for that book. That or another ICE product; he did some work for them before they declared bankruptcy in 2000.)

The issue I have with RM (and similar games) is the overreliance on a single mechanic to address every possible situation. It's the same issue 3rd Edition has, as well as just about every other RPG out there: pick your dice pool (1d20, many d6, d100), set a target value, add your bonuses and roll. Useful in the sense that it's easier for players to remember, but doesn't deliver because you can't reliably represent every (or even most) situation with the same mechanic.
 

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