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The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

Oofta

Legend
Much as I agree, those options were discarded as insufficient (throwing out feats would render fighters non-viable, throwing out MCing wouldn't allow the players the characters they wanted, etc - to the OP's standard, anyway) right in the first post.

Which is why I have such a problem with Zapp's postings (and postings and postings followed up by more postings) on this topic. Nothing will satisfy him other than a complete official rewrite of the rules that somehow miraculously has no "best" option.

It's not going to happen, and there is no perfect rule system. IMHO, 5E is better than previous editions (something I couldn't say about 4E after I'd played for a while) which is all we can ask for. There is no way for any 1 game to satisfy every anonymous internet squeaky wheel.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Which is why I have such a problem with Zapp's postings (and postings and postings followed up by more postings) on this topic. Nothing will satisfy him other than a complete official rewrite of the rules that somehow miraculously has no "best" option.
Nothing miraculous about balance, but even a modest errata is off the table, I think. 5e really does seem to be sticking to the 'evergreen' concept (in stark contrast to Essentials), with a slow pace of release, virtually no updates, and each supplement being more or less an independent thing that gets put out, and functionally 'forgotten' for purposes of developing the next.
It's a strong strategy to create a stable brand identity as a foundation for growth into other media.

It's not going to happen, and there is no perfect rule system. IMHO, 5E is better than previous editions (something I couldn't say about 4E after I'd played for a while)
There's no perfect rule system, but by the same token, every system can be improved. 5e's better at what it tries for. I could say the same about 4e - it was a clearer, more consistent, better-balanced more new/casual-player-friendly RPG than any edition of D&D has even tried to be. Note I didn't say "any /other/ edition of D&D," because that'd imply 4e was 'really D&D.' ;) Ultimately what 4e got wrong and 5e got right was being genuine to D&D, and that means being 'bad' in a lot of ways that D&Ders are just fine with...

...with a very few exceptions, like the Cap'n.

I feel we'd have less back-and-forth with his ilk if we just said, "yeah, that's a 'flaw,' but we're fine with it..." maybe even going so far as, "in fact, if you 'fixed' it you'd ruin the game as D&D because..."

There is no way for any 1 game to satisfy every anonymous internet squeaky wheel.
I suppose we should just be grateful there are so many fewer of them grinding their axes this time around.
 
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pemerton

Legend
It was in reply to the numerous people who were claiming damage is king, that the focus should always be on damage per round, and that focusing on things outside of damage isn't helpful. Again...long thread. I get that you didn't read it all, but maybe catch up before replying to me again that you don't understand why I am talking about what quite a number of people in the thread are in fact talking about?
I've read the whole thread. No poster that I read said that "damage is king". (Sacrosanct has me blocked, but I doubt that he said that damage is king.)

About 70 posts in you posted the following:

The OP's perspective, from another recent thread, is that "Damage is King".

So may be all this Charm Person stuff is a response to some other thread?
 


pemerton

Legend
"A knife thrower is going to be carrying many knives, probably in a bandolier. Those are not going to all be hidden."

Well, now we know why hidable knives arent a thing of merit or value in your games or in your white rooms.
What's your view as to the number of concealed knives a knife-thrower can carry, draw and throw?

If a typical 5e combat last 4 rounds, and the fighter takes an action surge as well, that's 5 knives needed to make it through on combat (before we get to any bonus action posibilities). Do you think a character can have five concealed knives on his/her person?

In any event, I'm happy to hear all your warstories about D&D characters assassinating their powerful enemies with a single concelaed knife.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
What's your view as to the number of concealed knives a knife-thrower can carry, draw and throw?
If a typical 5e combat last 4 rounds, and the fighter takes an action surge as well, that's 5 knives needed to make it through on combat (before we get to any bonus action posibilities). Do you think a character can have five concealed knives on his/her person?
Not the nearly least plausible thing I've ever heard in the context of D&D.

In any event, I'm happy to hear all your warstories about D&D characters assassinating their powerful enemies with a single concelaed knife.
This really happened. We were tasked to assassinate an evil nobleman. He was hanging out in a private bath, attended by half a dozen concubines and a pair of bad-ass female bodyguards. Our Changeling Bard bluffs his way in shapechanged into a comely female form, carrying a magic sword that is invisible when drawn (so not a concealed knife, I admit), gets within striking distance of the target, and stabs him, fatally. He was only 'powerful' in the political sense - a non-magical knife would have done for him. The rest of us had to dash in and save the changeling (who had /nothing/ apart from the magic sword) from the bodyguards, who put up a vicious fight, but there you go.

Perhaps it was not directly stated. However, much of the OP is saying it is extremely important. I just looked again.
Yeah, I did, too. He seems really focused on the balance of the fighter class & it's weapon options, and on encounter balance. All his 'fixes,' were they implemented, wouldn't begin to actually balance the game in the broader sense. Though one - taking way the rest option from PCs, I guess going to the 13A model - would go further than all the others combined.
 
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pemerton

Legend
they want balance as it relates to DPR. That desire is the direct cause of their dissatisfaction. They have a problem because DPR is their main concern.

If the players didn't worry about parity in the DPR area, then when the multiclassed warlock/sorcerer used his Exploitation Blast to do 846 points of damage in one round, the other players would simply say "wow, impressive" and there would be no issue.
They want DPR builds to balance with DPR builds, that's not the same thing as DPR being the main concern, or they'd be all over trying to boost DPR outside the weapon users who have little else to contribute. Instead, the excess DPR of the feat-optimized fighter is viewed as merely rendering the class viable.
Tony Vargas's post seems accurate to me.

But even suppose that the OP and the OP's group did have DPR as their main concern. What would be wrong with that? It's obvious that balance in damage dealt is an important design consideration for 5e (there's no other reason why the spells no longer have the canonical damage ranges, but rather have all these weird damage expressesion, like a fireball cast by a 5th level character doing 8d6 rather than 5d6). And probably no single rules element gets as much attention (in PC design, in resolution mechanics, in spells and items, in monster design) as the rules for action economy, attacking, saving throws and inflicting damage.

I read the Mythological Figures column every time it is posted. And every time it's just a combat stat block. King Arthur is a set of combat stats for a 19th level battlemaster/paladin. Lancelot is a combat stat block for a 13th level champion/paladin. The only person in those threads who offers up Ideals, Bonds and Flaws for these personalities (which at least might start to flesh them out as the mythological figures that they are) is me.

If so many people are playing D&D essentially as a type of wargame - for which there is a very long pedigree, going back to the classic game - then what is wrong with focusing on DPR?

the -5/+10 aspects of those feats...and the ones that grant extra attacks, as well...don't really add anything to a character concept. I can make a Robin Hood type character without them. No one looks at a Robin Hood movie and thinks "wow he must have done +10 damage on that shot!"
The -5 actually fits neatly with BA: without BA, it'd be too great a penalty at low level, and trivial at high.
Here's my take on some aspects of the design challenge around -5/+10.

First - and contra the claim that "no one looks at Robin Hood and thinks that he must have done +10 damage" - there is an expectation that weapons can kill. That Robin Hood can take down a guard with a single arrow. That Conan can cleave an enemy in two with a blow from his axe. How to account for this in the context of a hp-based game? Allow those weapons the chance to get a damage add, which lifts their max damage to 20-odd, which is enough to kill an orc (hp 15) or a guard (hp 11) or a scout (hp 16).

(Other builds get different stuff: shield masters get to do protective stuff; fencers maybe get to be rogues?)

Second, the significance of the -5 to hit is incredibly variable. The OP regards it as just a speed bump on the way to optimisation. But somewhere out there a relatively new player is just now working out that, with a well-time buff from a friendly cleric or bard and manoeuvring for advantage, s/he can offset the -5 and get a real lift in damage output! For that new player, that's an enjoyable experience of learning to play the game better.

Is the game being designed for the OP, or for that new player? It's not easy to design for both, because building in scope for the new player to discover new tricks is at one and the same time building in break points for the player who can see and routinise those tricks on the basis of his/her experience.

This second half of this post ends up returing to the first half. It's possible to have a RPG in which mechanical tricks - playing with the dice and numbers - is not an important part of play. RPGs which aren't, and can't be, wargames. Those RPGs exist, and I probably have more familiarity with them than many ENworld posters, though not as much as some others.

But D&D is not one of those RPGs. It's chock full of opportunities for mechanical tricks - exploiting buffs, optimising action economy, finding clever ways to minimise damage taken, etc. The design doesn't just allow for that, it actively encourages it. So it's no mystery that some tables take this seriously. But it's hard to design a system of that sort that will be robust in the hands of both amateurs, who only stumble onto occasional tricks, get a buzz out of them, but don't systematically exploit them; and in the hands of "professionals" who systematically seek out those tricks and want to routinise them.

I was never a terribly good MtG player, but had friends who were national champions. Playing with them, and with their decks; compared to playing with random members of the University RPG club; was like apples and oranges. It wasn't the same game. D&D, on the other hand, is the same game - the OP is building PCs from the same build elements as the newcomer - and it's remarkable that it's as robust as it is across those differing sorts of play environments.
 

pemerton

Legend
This really happened. We were tasked to assassinate an evil nobleman. He was hanging out in a private bath, attended by half a dozen concubines and a pair of bad-ass female bodyguards. Our Changeling Bard bluffs his way in shapechanged into a comely female form, carrying a magic sword that is invisible when drawn (so not a concealed knife, I admit), gets within striking distance of the target, and stabs him, fatally. He was only 'powerful' in the political sense - a non-magical knife would have done for him. The rest of us had to dash in and save the changeling (who had /nothing/ apart from the magic sword) from the bodyguards, who put up a vicious fight, but there you go.
Would you accept the assertion that this is atypical for D&D? (Given that a SRD guard has 11 hp, and a SRD mage has 40 hp, the number of potentates with 6 or fewer must be rather modest.)

An exception of course would be 4e, where a skill challenge to "minionise" the target would be de rigeur; but 5e doesn't have any minion rules (because they are unrealistic, and don't "feel" like D&D).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It's obvious that balance in damage dealt is an important design consideration for 5e
I was surprised, in the Mike Mearls Warlord stream, to see him use the spell damage table as the prime guide for balancing the sub-class. DPR /is/ the easiest balance element to check, it makes sense to check it in playtest, because you know the fans'll be dissecting it.

I read the Mythological Figures column every time it is posted. And every time it's just a combat stat block.
It's a stat block, that may be mostly combat, but that goes all the way back to Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes! It's just a D&D thang.


But even suppose that the OP and the OP's group did have DPR as their main concern. What would be wrong with that? If so many people are playing D&D essentially as a type of wargame - for which there is a very long pedigree, going back to the classic game - then what is wrong with focusing on DPR?
It leaves out two pillars and a host of combat considerations? You end up with classes that contribute mostly DPR being strictly inferior to those that also do 'balanced' DPR and contribute in social & exploration, or have more versatility to do things other than DPR.

Here's my take on some aspects of the design challenge around -5/+10.
First - and contra the claim that "no one looks at Robin Hood and thinks that he must have done +10 damage" - there is an expectation that weapons can kill. That Robin Hood can take down a guard with a single arrow. That Conan can cleave an enemy in two with a blow from his axe. How to account for this in the context of a hp-based game?
Without minions? Moar damage, sure:
Allow those weapons the chance to get a damage add, which lifts their max damage to 20-odd, which is enough to kill an orc (hp 15) or a guard (hp 11) or a scout (hp 16).
Another option would be to scale damage with level, like 13A or 5e cantrips already do.

Is the game being designed for the OP, or for that new player?
No.
 

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