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D&D 5E What do you want in a Dark Sun book (sans psionics)?

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
As people are saying, Dark Sun needs something vastly more severe, something that clearly lays out that by default, no non-Athasian races should be present, no normal Cleric subclasses should be present, certain spells should be absent, and so on. As I said, in a later DM-oriented chapter they can have a paragraph on flexing this, but the entire setting should be designed on the basis that it holds true.
I think you're bound to be disappointed on this score. I agree with you btw, but I don't think severe is going be the goal. I think we'll get a very similar bit of verbiage to the one in Ravnica. I'm fine with that though, but the decision rests with the DM anyway, and mostly that's me. It would suck to finally get to play new Dark Sun and end up playing with a bunch of yahoos who want to be edgelords and play the non-genre stuff.
 

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I think you're bound to be disappointed on this score. I agree with you btw, but I don't think severe is going be the goal. I think we'll get a very similar bit of verbiage to the one in Ravnica. I'm fine with that though, but the decision rests with the DM anyway, and mostly that's me. It would suck to finally get to play new Dark Sun and end up playing with a bunch of yahoos who want to be edgelords and play the non-genre stuff.

The trouble is that the setting flows from the restrictions.

Ravnica is part of this whole system of planes, and people do come and go, and it's also a vast, diverse city-world, where there could be an enclave of virtually any race or the like.

Dark Sun is the opposite - it's locked off from the rest of the universe (in a more severe way than Eberron, where it's kind of immaterial, because Eberron is a by-design kitchen sink), and the races being different, being post-apocalyptic versions of themselves, changed by this changed world, are a huge part of that.

If you even allow for other races in the world-design, you're inherently moving away from everything that makes Dark Sun, Dark Sun, because most of those races are designed for relatively cheery, green-and-blue fantasy worlds.

I don't think the players will really be the problem. Even edgelords - they're usually keen on the Athasian races, in my experience. But I think if the design of Dark Sun itself takes a Ravnican-style "Well, yeah, any race or subclass might exist here! Though they'd be really rare!", it just completely destroys the whole deal.

And with Dark Sun, they are necessarily going to have to make hard decisions - particularly re: Defiling/Preserving and the fact that Arcane and Divine magic aren't even really "a thing" in 5E. Defiling/Preserving will probably have to be basically "bolted on" to Arcane-designate casters - i.e. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards (if Bards are even in DS, I suspect they will be), EKs, ATs, and so on. They'll also need to look really hard at Divine casters. Clerics can't have the god-domain-based stuff they do currently. It's just not viable.

If they're doing stuff like that, why not actually do something daring and go further and say these races and subclasses are banned by default here. I think for new 5E players, i.e. people who started with 5E (which is a lot of people), that's going to be really exciting. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be. It was exciting back in 2E, for us. Yeah, Dark Sun banned half the books and stuff we already had. We didn't go "OH NO THEY ROBBED US!!!" or something, though, we went "WHOA DUDES EXTREEEEEEME!!!" in a '90s voice and it was awesome, and kids today will likely do the same except in a less '90s way. Just work with Beyond to add a "Dark Sun button" that DMs can flick on, which auto-eliminates non-DS-legal non-homebrew, and then online it's even easier. Pretty sure Beyond already "has the technology".

I think if you did this all really well, and also started at L3, and with generous stats and a free Psi feat, as I described, you'd get MASSIVE engagement with Dark Sun, because you have this huge generation of younger and new players who really haven't seen anything like that. It could become a whole thing. Especially with streaming and so on - the extra drama and over-the-top-ness of the setting (plus the inevitable burst of dress up in post-apocalypse-y outfits!) and even the rules (weapons breaking at vital moments etc.) would really work. I say this is the time for boldness, not trotting out some meek and slightly sad version of Dark Sun.

You gotta try something different sooner or later. Dark Sun is the exact right thing at the right time to try something different. The vast majority of AD&D settings are defacto kitchen sinks. DS isn't, and that's what makes it DS.

The one possibility I could see working without what I've said above is a "reimagined" Dark Sun. But that would need to be drastic - you'd basically have to nuBSG Dark Sun, i.e. just take the core concepts, and rework the entire setting, like from first principles. And I think you'd probably end up with something that wasn't necessarily appealing to new or old players, unless you did an amazing genius job.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I don't disagree sir, I just don't think we'll get exactly the level of banned you're looking for. We can hope I guess, but it won't make any difference to my game. If I'm going to run Dark Sun, there will be no green and blue shenanigans. Hopefully WotC take the potential drama and Fury Road-ness of it all and does something great.
 

Coroc

Hero
A poisoner rogue subclass would probably reasonable, but i don't think it belongs as a bard. Do you rewrite the base bard to strip the spellcasting out or do you just cut it and accept there'll be no 'inspiration' class? I want something reasonably solid to support PC traders, whether that's a subclass or not I'm pretty agnostic on. Pterrans - meh.
no, that one is awfully simple , don't you recognize the rogue assassin subclass? It's in the PHB
I am skeptic bout the pterran also, do not want easy movement in ds aka flying
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
They won't do it, of course, but I'd love to see them put out a "Dark Sun Player's Handbook" that's a completely rebuilt Player's Handbook with all Dark Sun material. Essentially a core book replacement.

--Different stat generation methods in Chapter 1.

--Some reprinted races, some races with new Dark Sun-y features, and new Dark Sun races in Chapter 2.

--Reprint fighter, rogue, barbarian, and monk with new subclasses (gladiator, dune trader, Athasian bard, etc.) Get rid of all the other classes. Add in elemental priests, templars, psions, psionic warriors, defilers, and preservers as new classes for Chapter 3.

--Some reprints and some new backgrounds in Chapter 4.

--Dark Sun specific equipment in Chapter 5.

--Reprint most of the feats and multiclass rules, drop feats that aren't relevant and some new ones in Chapter 6.

--New psionic rules, new environmental rules focused on surviving in harsh climates in Chapters 7-11.

--Reprint the spells used by priests, templars, preservers and defilers in the Spells section, and add psionic specific powers if appropriate.

Then do a second book that's a combination DM guide, lore guide, and monster manual, like a combination of SCAG and Volo's.

Again, it will never happen, but it's fun to think about.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
I am skeptic bout the pterran also, do not want easy movement in ds aka flying
Pterrans are flightless, they're just small not-lizardmen

But as I am Big Massive Pterosaur Nerd, I would be disappointed in Pterran unless they are actually pterosaur appropriate. So....

1: Fuzzy from pycnofibers, as all pterosaurs were
2: Probably not based on the sea-going Pteranadon, AKA the pterosaur that was very dependant on an ocean-dependant life that we have thousands of fossils of it because there was a giant ocean in the middle of North America back then. Now, maybe something more like the ground-based Ahzdarchids who include the metal as heck Thalassodromeus or the giant, terrifying, dinosaur-eating Hatzegopteryx.
3: Appropriately pterosaur-esque things to 'em based on the last years
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
@TwoSix - I think that they could produce one book that's pretty much what you want, with both the PHB and DMG content included. One big hardcover could accommodate all those rules and some setting material IMO. I'd be very pleased if what we got was a rules book and a world book, but I don't think we'll get that either, as cool as it would be. What I don't want is an adventure path of any kind. Gimme rules, baby.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
@TwoSix - I think that they could produce one book that's pretty much what you want, with both the PHB and DMG content included. One big hardcover could accommodate all those rules and some setting material IMO. I'd be very pleased if what we got was a rules book and a world book, but I don't think we'll get that either, as cool as it would be. What I don't want is an adventure path of any kind. Gimme rules, baby.
I'm sure they could, yes, but I think producing setting-specific PHBs would be an interesting way to do an new on-ramp product that is simultaneously a rules expansion.

Agreed on the no adventure path; I'm sure it's good for a segment of the market but I have no personal interest.
 

Maybe the metaplot could allow new ellements to be added, for example new races arriving from the Kalidnay, the dark domain in the demiplane of the dread (Ravenloft). If there plans for the return of Spelljammer, we can bet somebody will ask more information about the "crimson sphere", the crystal sphere of Athas, altought somebody suggest Athas is isolated in a demiplane.

* The Athasian genasi subraces were canon in 4th Ed. Maybe the wilders, the plant-touched races from 4th Ed were created by the lifeshaper tech and they could survive the cleasing wars in the feywild/land withing the wind.

* WotC should allow fanart based of DS as free adverticing.

* John Carter, mars warlord, now is public domain, isn't it? This means 3PPs could use this franchise to create their own DS, and it wouldn't be true plagiarism.

* Dao, efreeti and other genies can live in the elemental planes, and this means Athas could be visited by potential invaders not only from the astral plane, but also from the elemental planes. Maybe even some elemental creatures have conquered some empire beyond Tyr.

* Direct crossovers with other D&D worlds aren't, or shouldn't be, possible, but with Ravenloft, however maybe in the elemental planes there are some planar gates toward other material planes, and theses with visitors from Jackandor or the Hollow World from Mystara. Other option could be some zone from the material plane is abducted and sent as demiplane to an infernal plane. Then the natives to run away would try to find a planar gate. What if they find a planar bridge from this infernal plane to a zone in Athas, but beyond lands of Tyr?

* Shouldn't be the tari (Athasian ratfoks) a playable PC race?
 

Looks like most people are looking for more mechanical and PC options. What I want is setting material that's usable at the table. So in addition to the big-picture setting background, some boots-on-the-ground content. Like:
  • Caravans, including NPCs, guards, goods, routes, etc.
  • Rosters of arena foes
  • Oasis
  • Detailed settlements
  • Lairs of monsters unique to Athas
  • Mini-dungeons highlighting the desert environment
  • Adventure hooks tied to PC backgrounds
  • Encounter details for wizards being attacked by mobs or imprisoned
The more content I can plug into a game session, the better.
 

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