D&D 5E Rogue's Cunning action: Double dash, etc.

[The Crimson Binome]

It is good DMing because the rules very clearly place a limit on this extra movement to only be available in combat.

No, "in combat" is not a thing. Everyone gets their full complement of actions whether or not you've rolled initiative.

The only difference is whether time matters in such detail that you need to track it or not. If you need to track how far someone can get in six seconds, then you use the combat rules; if you don't need to track it, because time doesn't matter, then the question is irrelevant (but the Rogue can still travel just as fast, even if you've said that you don't care).

 

[d20knight]

D20Knight, after reading the recent discussion I really think it's best we leave the RAW/RAI angle.

You want your D&D to work a certain way. It is the intent of the rules according to you.

And know what? That's perfectly okay!

As long as you communicate your houserules to your players before they choose characters. Please do not expect them to read your intent into the text of the PHB; as you can surmise from this discussion this is not as clear-cut as you might believe or want to believe.

I would simply leave out the "the rules text support my position" out of it entirely, and instead simply say "You want to play in my campaign. Great! Here's a short document outlining my tweaks and design choices, please read it before you expect something that isn't there when I'm DM:ing"

It doesn't have to be complicated. But you should probably say something like "movement speeds as given by the PHB cover combat/initiative situations only; out of combat, characters move at roughly the same speed, and chases are instead resolved by <insert short explanation of how you do chase scenes here>"

And you need to do it BEFORE a player chooses to play Rogues, Wood Elves and Barbarians. (They might still make these choices, but they need to know your take on movement going in)

Thank you for saying so. Like I have repeatedly said, I am only volunteering opinion on a subject.

And thank you for the advise regarding player handling even though it wasn't the topic at hand.

I say again, "I would rule.......", stated as an opinion and was not forcing anyone to accept it.

 

[Hriston]

No, "in combat" is not a thing. Everyone gets their full complement of actions whether or not you've rolled initiative.

The only difference is whether time matters in such detail that you need to track it or not. If you need to track how far someone can get in six seconds, then you use the combat rules; if you don't need to track it, because time doesn't matter, then the question is irrelevant (but the Rogue can still travel just as fast, even if you've said that you don't care).

I agree with this in spirit, in that characters do not, of course, suddenly gain powers and abilities that they didn't already have as soon as initiative is rolled and they find themselves in a combat encounter or a chase, but I'm wondering why, in such a situation the rules for combat or a chase are not being used. If the time scale of six seconds is critical enough for dashing to be relevant then shouldn't initiative have been rolled? It's difficult for me to think of a situation where a character would need to use the ability to run 90' in six seconds and for the resolution of such use to not be critical with reference to other actions happening in the same time-scale. As per the chase rules, any use of a "double dash" beyond the first round of use runs the risk of incurring exhaustion. Even for a character with a constitution of 20, risk of exhaustion begins after four rounds, or twenty-four seconds, not enough time to affect travel speed in any very significant way. For example, at the time scale of one minute, use of this ability would allow such a character to gain 140' on a character travelling at a fast pace before risk of exhaustion kicks in, and even speed could probably not be maintained for the entire minute. It seems like situations like this would be better handled with the six-second scale.

 

[Ajax1170]

To be fair, 100m sprints and 1k runs are performed on a flat track with gentle turns. You are running in the same direction the whole time. That's pretty different from the assumed movement in combat — natural ground, possibly with light obstructions (though not difficult terrain), constant changing of direction, looking over one's shoulder, probably a lot of side-stepping, and little to no built-up momentum. Oh, and you're wearing a lot more than running shorts and Nikes. The dash action assumes that you are moving for the complete 6 seconds of the round, but it's a much more complicated form of movement than a "dash" on a track.

A mechanic for characters to actually "run" in the sense of moving as fast as you can in a more a less straight line seems totally reasonable, though maybe our military folks might have experience with this — how fast can you run in combat footwear with a weapon and a 40-pound pack?

To answer your last question, the basic CFT (Combat Fitness Test) for the USMC requires an 880 yard run in 2:45. That's an average of 96 ft/second*** if I did my math right. This is done in boots and utes (combat boots and utility uniform). In full kit (body armor, weapons, ammo, radios, water...this list is endless) I was generally well over 300 lbs (I was a 180lbs at the time) and while we never stopped to time ourselves running from cover to cover in combat we weren't moving slow.

Actually, one of my squad leaders dropped a radio in the middle of an open field during a firefight. His GPS recorded his top speed upwards of 20mph (I think 23) running back out to get it. In full kit with a weapon while shooting.

I'm not a world-class athlete, my fastest 100m dash was around 11 seconds and my fastest mile around 5 minutes. I dunno about everyone else, but I like to think that my 16-20 dex rogue is up there in the realm of fantasy superheroes. 90 ft per 6 seconds is only a 5.8-minute mile. I don't see an issue with that in or out of combat, especially considering how much the rogue gives up in order to have that mobility.

***edit***
96 ft/6 seconds

 

[Xeviat]

I've been trying to have a discussion on adding a proper "run" action. One would need to decide if double dashing from the rogue and monk was allowed before determining any sort of speed multiplier for running. Unless you made a feat which let people dash as a bonus action, I wouldn't want to force all sprinters to be monks and rogues.
[MENTION=6878165]Ajax1170[/MENTION] it sounds like all that gear doesn't slow a strong person as much as we might assume. I'd guess it kills endurance, though.


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[Ajax1170]

I've been trying to have a discussion on adding a proper "run" action. One would need to decide if double dashing from the rogue and monk was allowed before determining any sort of speed multiplier for running. Unless you made a feat which let people dash as a bonus action, I wouldn't want to force all sprinters to be monks and rogues.
[MENTION=6878165]Ajax1170[/MENTION] it sounds like all that gear doesn't slow a strong person as much as we might assume. I'd guess it kills endurance, though.


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I think if you take into account dash actions available to characters (single dash for everyone but rogues and monks) and the chase mechanics already described in the DMG it covers every instance I can think of for someone to be running fairly well. In combat just stick with dash action economy. Out of combat, say if your rogue has completely disengaged from the dragon and is trying to double dash away every turn to outrun him..then you go to chase mechanics and con saves. Which 99/100 the dragon is going to win.

It doesn't slow us down as much as you'd think. That just comes from wearing the gear 24/7 for months. The longer the distance we have to travel though the more it impacts speed. Race times are fairly exponential... the shorter the race the closer the time gaps are... so the time difference of me sprinting 100m with an extra 100 lbs compared to nothing is going to be significantly smaller than at 200m...1600m... so on and so forth. Which is where the con saves come in.

 

[Xeviat]

I think if you take into account dash actions available to characters (single dash for everyone but rogues and monks) and the chase mechanics already described in the DMG it covers every instance I can think of for someone to be running fairly well. In combat just stick with dash action economy. Out of combat, say if your rogue has completely disengaged from the dragon and is trying to double dash away every turn to outrun him..then you go to chase mechanics and con saves. Which 99/100 the dragon is going to win.

Well here's the part that I mean.

A typical character can move 60 feet a round if they put their all into it (dash, move). A rogue can move 90 feet a round (dash, dash, move). A 2nd level monk can move 120 feet a round (dash, dash, move). A 5th level barbarian can move 80 feet a round (dash, move).

You gave an example of 96 ft/second, or 567 feet per round ... so I don't think that was right. 880 yard (2640 feet) in 2:45 (165 seconds) is 16 feet/second, or 96 feet per round for 27.5 rounds; that's a lot of dashing, far more than 3 rounds.
World record 100 meter dashes are under 10 seconds. 100 meters is 328 feet. 328/10 = X/6; that's about 200 feet per round (Usain Bolt's record comes out to 205 feet per round for 1.5 rounds). His 100 meter is 9.58 seconds, and 200 meter is 19.19 seconds (3 rounds is 18); that's hardly any slow down (his 400 meter is 45.28, or 26.09 seconds to run the extra 200 meters, which is 150 feet per round for another 4+ rounds ...)

Yes, this is mostly straight running or gradual curves, so a "run" action could have a "straight line" or some other limitation (1 turn every 6 seconds would make a pretty wide turn). Yes, these are numbers from a completely unencumbered person who has trained their whole life; monks don't wear armor, this should be doable by them before they start getting obscene speed boosts. Double dashing is not unreasonable given what people can actually do; D&D characters need to be able to be faster if they need to.

 

[Ajax1170]

Well here's the part that I mean.

A typical character can move 60 feet a round if they put their all into it (dash, move). A rogue can move 90 feet a round (dash, dash, move). A 2nd level monk can move 120 feet a round (dash, dash, move). A 5th level barbarian can move 80 feet a round (dash, move).

You gave an example of 96 ft/second, or 567 feet per round ... so I don't think that was right. 880 yard (2640 feet) in 2:45 (165 seconds) is 16 feet/second, or 96 feet per round for 27.5 rounds; that's a lot of dashing, far more than 3 rounds.
World record 100 meter dashes are under 10 seconds. 100 meters is 328 feet. 328/10 = X/6; that's about 200 feet per round (Usain Bolt's record comes out to 205 feet per round for 1.5 rounds). His 100 meter is 9.58 seconds, and 200 meter is 19.19 seconds (3 rounds is 18); that's hardly any slow down (his 400 meter is 45.28, or 26.09 seconds to run the extra 200 meters, which is 150 feet per round for another 4+ rounds ...)

Yes, this is mostly straight running or gradual curves, so a "run" action could have a "straight line" or some other limitation (1 turn every 6 seconds would make a pretty wide turn). Yes, these are numbers from a completely unencumbered person who has trained their whole life; monks don't wear armor, this should be doable by them before they start getting obscene speed boosts. Double dashing is not unreasonable given what people can actually do; D&D characters need to be able to be faster if they need to.

I did my math right then wrote it down wrong. 96 ft/ 6 seconds. I corrected the edit.

There is very little slow down in olympic/world record times up to the mile even these days. Because the mile is considered a sprint. The world record mile was 3:43... which is an average of 142 ft/ 6 seconds.

Put 100 lbs on their back the 5k+ runners will collapse and the milers will break. The sprinters will still do ok but it won't be nearly that fast.

Regardless.. for a game setting in a fantasy world with magic and dragons. I see no issue with some characters running faster than others. The guy in full plate with a 10lb axe certainly isn't going to keep up with the guy in studded leather with a couple of daggers.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think if you take into account dash actions available to characters (single dash for everyone but rogues and monks) and the chase mechanics already described in the DMG it covers every instance I can think of for someone to be running fairly well.

Unfortunately the chase mechanics make the median marathon runner (~48 feet/6s for 4 hours) into a superhero compared with a D&D character in absolute peak condition (ie - 20 con is not going to carry you far through the 2392 DC 10 con checks you have to make before you die, let alone before your speed is halved). I find it unlikely that the median marathon runner has a 20 con.

You need to be a rogue (with mobility IIRC) to equal the top end marathon runners in speed... and you'll hit that con-check wall much faster because you're using dashes twice as fast.

Ideally the chase mechanics (and movement in general) need to add the result of some check to simulate flat-out sprinting. That would let you eliminate the ridiculous die-before-you-run-a-mile chase mechanic, would let you actually have running races that finish with some variety, would let you have some common mechanic that allows you to get better at running without necessarily getting faster at walking, would let you have some gradual penalty for running while encumbered etc etc.

 

[LioMurasaki]

I have a question regarding a Rogue's Cunning Action ability: It states a rogue can use their bonus action to use a Dash, Disengage, or Hide option; does this mean it's possible to use dash twice? If so, with an example of 30 feet walking speed, does that give you 90 (30 + 30 + 30) or 120 (30 *2*2) walk speed?

In addition, would the rogue be able to use hide twice? Say they use hide as a regular action and fail, would they then realistically be able to use their cunning action to try again (perhaps in a slightly different location).

I know this is old, but, it's actually 120ft,not 90, because dash doubles your speed after EVERY MODIFIER AND MULTIPLIER which means a dash doubles it and another dash after that doubles that dash speed