D&D 5E Rogue's Cunning action: Double dash, etc.

[Mouseferatu]

DM'ng and RPG's very nature is subject to individual interpretations.

The problem is, while it's a perfectly valid house rule, it's not an "interpretation." At least not of what's actually written in the book.

Dash is an action, not a multiplier. Take the dash action, move your speed. There is no argument in the RAW for you not being able to dash twice if you can somehow take the action twice. That'd be like ruling the bonus attack offered by TWF doesn't actually occur, because it somehow doesn't "stack" with the main attack.

If dash was written as "when you take the dash action, you double your move," then the non-stacking interpretation would have a leg to stand on. But it's not. It's very specifically written as its own thing. Not a multiplier. Not an addendum. When you take the dash action, you move your movement rate. Heck, while I can't think of a reason why you'd do this, it's possible to move via the dash action and then not use your normal movement at all, in a given round.

Again, house rule? Have at. But it simply isn't a viable interpretation of the RAW, the way they're phrased.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Your rational would apply to non-rogues as well, but as non-rogues can't do this, it doesn't make sense. Moreover the elephant in the room is that rogues can somehow move faster after initiative has been rolled than before.

That is nonsense...

The elephant in the room is, that the speed is limited to 60ft/90ft per round...

5e lacks an option for running. (except that it is an improvised action the rules don´t explicitely cover.)

Telling a rogue that he may not run 90ft per round, because initiative is not rolled is in my opinion bad DMing... because it does not pass the logic nor the fun test.

 

[d20knight]

Very well argued. But I am not trying to sell RAW here.

Consider the intent of the ability, and it would REALLY be jarring for Rogues to be 50% faster ever single time. Being able to move double your move speed (move + dash) and attack is already pretty powerful in itself. I am not nerfing the ability at all. With that ability alone, you stand far above the other classes already with what they can do with mobility.

I agree - that with RAW this argument doesn't stand, but RAW also says nothing about characters having the ability to breathe. Interpreting the rules then --- characters can't breathe. And RAW states follow suffocation rules - and then we won't be having this conversation. My dislike for RAW is another topic. I'm sure there are plenty of headscratching involved when running the game as RAW.

But I still maintain that the game is intended to be run with characters being able to breathe (even without the express RAW that they are able to), and that sometimes we just have to RELY on our DM's to make judgment calls on fuzzy logic, and hopefully still have a blast doing it.

So SUMMARY - RAW, double dash looks to be allowed. RAI - fuzzy for me. But hey. We all love the game on most times enough to talk about it.

Lets just let our very own DM's hash it out, and I will not hold it against ANY DM who makes a ruling.

All I was doing really is putting my two cents on the table, not argue on it. At the end of the day, the DM in the table will make the call... I just wanted to write down my thoughts as to what I thought about it. That's why it was written as "I would rule ----" instead of "IT CLEARLY MEANS".

 

[CapnZapp]

Very well argued. But I am not trying to sell RAW here.

Consider the intent of the ability, and it would REALLY be jarring for Rogues to be 50% faster ever single time. Being able to move double your move speed (move + dash) and attack is already pretty powerful in itself. I am not nerfing the ability at all. With that ability alone, you stand far above the other classes already with what they can do with mobility.

But it's equally jarring or unjarring that Barbarians are 33% faster all the time.

Or what about Wood Elves? They're always 1/6th faster.

So why single out the Rogue?

 

[ehenning]

This concept seems much more suited to a monk, honestly. A 11th lvl wood elf Way of Shadow monk with Mobile as a feat moves 65 ft per round, moves 60 ft from shadow to shadow, and STILL gets his attacks (2 full attacks plus flurry of blows at 1d8 x 2) WITH ADVANTAGE on the first attack!

AND you can disengage without an attack of opportunity threat.



That is a fricking ninja

 

[Chocolategravy]

Telling a rogue that he may not run 90ft per round, because initiative is not rolled is in my opinion bad DMing... because it does not pass the logic nor the fun test.

It is good DMing because the rules very clearly place a limit on this extra movement to only be available in combat. The expert brains behind D&D that carefully crafted and balanced this game you've paid them for thought it necessary.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Your rational would apply to non-rogues as well, but as non-rogues can't do this, it doesn't make sense. Moreover the elephant in the room is that rogues can somehow move faster after initiative has been rolled than before.

The assumption being that Bonus Actions can only be taken once Initiative has been rolled? So Misty Step cannot be cast unless Initiative has been rolled, also? I have not seen anything in the rules that support this.

 

[miniaturehoarder]

Your rational would apply to non-rogues as well, but as non-rogues can't do this, it doesn't make sense. Moreover the elephant in the room is that rogues can somehow move faster after initiative has been rolled than before.

In RL we call it Adrenalin. Also as pointed out, the chase rules cover excessive amounts of dashing.

 

[seebs]

Very well argued. But I am not trying to sell RAW here.

Consider the intent of the ability, and it would REALLY be jarring for Rogues to be 50% faster ever single time. Being able to move double your move speed (move + dash) and attack is already pretty powerful in itself. I am not nerfing the ability at all. With that ability alone, you stand far above the other classes already with what they can do with mobility.

I think the intent of the ability is that rogues can do an extra thing from a small list every round. I don't think the extra movement violates the intent of the ability at all.

I agree - that with RAW this argument doesn't stand, but RAW also says nothing about characters having the ability to breathe. Interpreting the rules then --- characters can't breathe. And RAW states follow suffocation rules - and then we won't be having this conversation. My dislike for RAW is another topic. I'm sure there are plenty of headscratching involved when running the game as RAW.

This is a really, really, disingenuous argument. You're using "so obvious it doesn't need to be said" as a counter to "is stated explicitly".

But I still maintain that the game is intended to be run with characters being able to breathe (even without the express RAW that they are able to), and that sometimes we just have to RELY on our DM's to make judgment calls on fuzzy logic, and hopefully still have a blast doing it.

So SUMMARY - RAW, double dash looks to be allowed. RAI - fuzzy for me. But hey. We all love the game on most times enough to talk about it.

I don't see any fuzziness at all here. There's no indications of an intent that would prohibit rogues from moving really fast when not doing anything but moving.

Lets just let our very own DM's hash it out, and I will not hold it against ANY DM who makes a ruling.

All I was doing really is putting my two cents on the table, not argue on it. At the end of the day, the DM in the table will make the call... I just wanted to write down my thoughts as to what I thought about it. That's why it was written as "I would rule ----" instead of "IT CLEARLY MEANS".

But the meaning is clear.

This is analagous to "I would rule that wizards have disadvantage on all melee attack rolls, because the intent of the game isn't for wizards to be just as good in melee combat as other characters with similar stats." That's nothing to do with RAI.

 

[CapnZapp]

D20Knight, after reading the recent discussion I really think it's best we leave the RAW/RAI angle.

You want your D&D to work a certain way. It is the intent of the rules according to you.

And know what? That's perfectly okay!

As long as you communicate your houserules to your players before they choose characters. Please do not expect them to read your intent into the text of the PHB; as you can surmise from this discussion this is not as clear-cut as you might believe or want to believe.

I would simply leave out the "the rules text support my position" out of it entirely, and instead simply say "You want to play in my campaign. Great! Here's a short document outlining my tweaks and design choices, please read it before you expect something that isn't there when I'm DM:ing"

It doesn't have to be complicated. But you should probably say something like "movement speeds as given by the PHB cover combat/initiative situations only; out of combat, characters move at roughly the same speed, and chases are instead resolved by <insert short explanation of how you do chase scenes here>"

And you need to do it BEFORE a player chooses to play Rogues, Wood Elves and Barbarians. (They might still make these choices, but they need to know your take on movement going in)