D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Yaarel]

lack of levers came when millenials decided that it was lame and weak to have magic items. welcome to the reason Game Developers fight the idea of changing a game that is working ok to make the latest flavor of icecream.

Yes. And.

Any class can benefit from magic items. Magic items are separate from class design.

The Fighter still has a problem with regard to its class design.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You gain more options as you level.
The options become progressively more powerful based on character level
The options allow for more complex mechanics at later levels.
Customization via what options are chosen
A general overall mechanic (spend a spell slot, use a superiority dice) with occasional specific overrides.
Resources are limited to encourage tactical thinking and conservative use (ie not spamming I win buttons every round) but uses grow with level.

Level Up's combat maneuver system. Covers all your requirements.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I can't even begin to address how much this is a player/table problem and not a game problem.

Limited imagination? Ugh.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the premise regarding martials and spellcasters, you cannot deny (at least on Enworld) that this "player/table problem" comes up often.

How often does it need to come up, in order for it to be a game problem?
So all these players/tables have limited imagination?

 

[Remathilis]

Level Up's combat maneuver system. Covers all your requirements.

It very well could. I mean, the battlemaster maneuvers are a good start. You just need more or more powerful ones.

 

[AnotherGuy]

lack of levers came when millenials decided that it was lame and weak to have magic items. welcome to the reason Game Developers fight the idea of changing a game that is working ok to make the latest flavor of icecream.

I believe, if one had to tackle this issue earnestly, one would need to start at the magic system.
The non-casters would become fairly easy to design if we could fix the magic within D&D cosmos.
But that is my personal opinion.

 

[Minigiant]

expect the most experienced game design team with a proven track record of increasing the game's popularity to try and fix it. But again, it might not be fixed for your table. It will be fixed for many other tables. That is the crux of this problem. You want a game designed for you and a handful of other people that perceive a problem. Yet, there is never really any evidence. It's anecdotal, which for the record, in my book counts. But it counts for your table.
And if the inexperienced DM does encounter the problem of having a 20th level fighter not be able to compete with the caster class using non-magical feats and powers, then they are similar to your table. Maybe you should get together. Maybe you and others should post fixes or an expansion after the new core books come out. But what you should not do is insist that the game designers can't do it.

WOTC's data says no one plays high level 5e and people are not excited about it.

So it isn't a me thing or a minority thing.

Very few people play high level 5e and the few who do don't play it for long.

 

[Emberashh]

How often does it need to come up, in order for it to be a game problem?
So all these players/tables have limited imagination?

Theres a difference between something being a system problem and something being an instruction problem.

A computer working perfectly can still be a problematic enigma for someone who doesn't know how to use it.

5e has a lot more instruction problems than it does system ones, and most of the system problems would be practically invisible with adequate instruction.

 

[Yaarel]

I believe, if one had to tackle this issue earnestly, one would need to start at the magic system.
The non-casters would become fairly easy to design if we could fix the magic within D&D cosmos.
But that is my personal opinion.

A simple help (perhaps even a fix), is to separate "rituals" from "spells". Let anyone try to cast a ritual, using an ability check. Use different skills for different schools.

Rituals dont require spell slots. Rituals are generally for noncombat. Letting the Fighter attempt rituals prevents the spellcaster monopoly.

For example, at high levels, traveling by Teleportation or Planeshift can easily be rituals, which a Fighter can do too by performing the ritual correctly.

Some high level rituals can have a character level prerequisite. Some rituals have simple requirements, but other rituals can have elaborate or rare requirements. Rituals can be quirky and flavorful, and even dangerous if significantly failing the ability check to perform them. Treat rituals like magic items that one finds as treasure.

This solution of rituals is less about fixing the Fighter, and more about softening the monopoly of spellcasters over a magical world at the highest levels.

 

[Yaarel]

Theres a difference between something being a system problem and something being an instruction problem.

The noncaster-versus-caster debates remind me of the alignment debates. Endless. With camps on both (and other) sides.

In the end, the alignment debates were a system problem.

The biggest solution was eliminating alignment mechanics.

Alignment debates still happen but they are gentler and personal. Now it is about flavor, rather than about whether or not your Paladin has powers anymore.

 

[nevin]

I believe, if one had to tackle this issue earnestly, one would need to start at the magic system.
The non-casters would become fairly easy to design if we could fix the magic within D&D cosmos.
But that is my personal opinion.

no.... high level encounters without high level magic is just mid level encounters relabeled as High level easy enough for an untrained DM to run it. People who play High level games want the magic, The artifact items, the fighter with his christmas tree and a bag of magical options to use against the casters, the gods all the crazy stuff that make it harder to DM. Taking the away any one of those things is just changing the definition of high level play in an attempt to make easy mode high level play. (I don't think that's possible but other's seem to think it can be done)
IME two things kill high level games the fastest. DM nitpicking over spells that just messed up a week of plannning, DM nitpicking against magic items they forgot that allow non caster to mess up a week of planning. I've seen both of those things kill more high level games than anything else. Players just get up and walk away. High level games are fast furious and whack a mole till your DM brain explodes. That's why most DM's don't run long term High level games.

so far since 1972 every argument I've seen for fixing magic in DND can be easily solved by playing a different game. Quit trying to fix the game who's original roots involved High level spells, Greek Style gods and players with artifacts tromping around by taking that stuff away. go play GURPS or one of the other systems made for the play you want.