D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

I agree. I have been part of seven different campaigns as a player. Only two made it to 20.

But half the arguments on here are to fix the high-level fighter. How much of a priority should it be if so few people play?

That's not a reason for changes and additions to not be made, it's just a reason for WotC not to make them.

 

[Scott Christian]

Only if the table and the players are the designers.

So you don't allow for newer WotC books that contradict older books? You don't allow third party supplements? You don't allow houserules?

 

[Yaarel]

But it seems like it's gotten to the point where everyone needs to post their assumptions at the top of every post.

1) busted casters will not change and all the existing classes will still exist
2) narrative permission to do anything in a mythic martial class as has been outlined
3) this new mythic martial class will be no more powerful or versatile than the Wizard but otherwise everything else is fair game

Heh, for me.

1) I like buster casters.
2) I want Martial classes to be busters too.
3) The mythic warrior will be as powerful and versatile as other classes.
4) I care about balance between classes.
5) Every class must contribute comparably to both combat and noncombat.
6) I care about coherency between mechanics and narrative
7) Low magic is a low tier setting.

 

[Scott Christian]

Forget the Fighter. Keep it in the game as is. I'm pretty sure we've established that most of us want a separate class that fits a different narrative archetype (mythic martial) and is no more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard. Also from what I can tell could be in a splat book and not core and most of us wouldn't care either.

There is all kinds of resistance against this for unclear reasons.

I have already said I agree with this 100%. You can have your fighter. Non-magical? Heck yea! I'd be the first to try it out.

But, in reality, we know that's not what will happen. There will be a power struggle. A small handful of players will complain about their damage per round compared to X, or their lack of movement compared to X, or their lack of skills compared to X. That will happen until they get what they want. Then that has the possibility to make the other fighters obsolete.

If it was built and tempered everyone would be on board.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Heh, for me.

1) I like buster casters.
2) I want Martial classes to be busters too.
3) The mythic warrior will be as powerful and versatile as other classes.
4) I care about balance between classes.
5) Every class must contribute comparably to both combat and noncombat.
6) I care about coherency between mechanics and narrative
7) Low magic is a low level setting.

That all sounds reasonable, but many will argue (reasonably IMO) that assumption 5 is not currently being met, and can't be without changing existing martials in ways that will get pushback, possibly quite a lot of it. That's why I vote for a new mythic martial/superhero that meets the needed assumptions, rather than messing with the existing martial classes.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

And the tables turn yet again on the "it isn't fair to deny theres a problem just because you don't have a problem with it" issue.

There's no table turning here.

Here's the gist:

"I don't see a problem. The current Fighter is fine playing along the Wizard for me and my table"
"Ok, we do have a problem and it would be better if there was a separate class mythic martial that could emulate more of what we want. We'll make sure it is no more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard. We'll make it an entirely new class so that people who like the current Fighter and have no problems can still play it.".
"No way, this will break the game! This will ruin my fun!"

There's no table turning. No is trying to deny your ability to continue on with your current situation. People are trying to deny an options that would be good for others though. (even though this new option is no more powrful than current options - Wizard)

 

[CreamCloud0]

100% correct. The difference is, when one is already given the options and one is not, the one that is not often comes up with a broader range of solutions. It's proven over and over again. So you are correct. The wizard can think of the same solutions. But the real life results in psychology often state they don't. And that is because they are given a block of text that explicitly tells them what they are to do and its intended outcomes.
In other words, it's a game of chance, and human minds like a sure bet. So the wizard will err on the side of the sure bet and not even think about the optional "chance" categories.

just because you were forced to improvise an alternate solution doesn't make that solution inherently better than the existing ones that already exist and are proven to work, the fighter being forced to attempt to screw in a screw with their bare hands or clamped in a pair of pliers isn't superior to the wizard who has and chooses to use a screwdriver to accomplish the same task.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I have already said I agree with this 100%. You can have your fighter. Non-magical? Heck yea! I'd be the first to try it out.

But, in reality, we know that's not what will happen. There will be a power struggle. A small handful of players will complain about their damage per round compared to X, or their lack of movement compared to X, or their lack of skills compared to X. That will happen until they get what they want. Then that has the possibility to make the other fighters obsolete.

If it was built and tempered everyone would be on board.

I mean if after introducing the Mythic Martial the Fighter became obsolete but the Wizard didn't that would sort of justify the whole thing right?

If that is what people are worried about, then that is just a version of "I like the disparity and want to keep it".

If there isn't a disparity between Fighter and Wizard currently though, this shouldn't happen. People who want mundane Fighters will pick the Champion and people like want supernatural Fighters will pick the Mythic Martial.

 

[Emberashh]

"No way, this will break the game! This will ruin my fun!"

Meanwhile, what was actually said:

"This is going to break the game and not be fun for anybody, least of all the DM who has to juggle a cruddy design whose only purpose to exist is to enable the rest of the broken parts of the game to go on existing while a highly niche subset of people get one shiny new toy that may or may not even be what they actually want."

 

[Emberashh]

That all sounds reasonable, but many will argue (reasonably IMO) that assumption 5 is not currently being met, and can't be without changing existing martials in ways that will get pushback, possibly quite a lot of it.

If I can find numerous ways to make non-magic martials competitive in the Utility game, people who get paid to design games can too.

And thats without even getting into nerfing magic so you have less work to do and more room to design with.