D&D (2024) A Revised Necromancer Subclass?

[DEFCON 1]

The mechanics are how you interface with the game world. To not take the mechanics into account is to play a mad character who doesn't live in their world. Yes I consider not playing a literally insane character unless the insanity is part of their character to be important.

I do not agree with your definition of insanity here.

Mechanically, you yourself are less inclined to suffer a heart attack by exercising and eating healthier. Do you do so? Every day? If not, then I guess you should be considered insane for voluntarily not doing something that will keep you alive. Or what about taking additional driving courses to be stronger behind the wheel of a car and less likely to die in a crash from poor driving. If you aren't making that obvious choice for longer life, then I guess you just must be mad, right?

And this is why I don't agree with your definition.

We all make choices based not on one specific end result, but for any hundreds of different reasons. And choosing to do something counter to that one result does not make one "mad" or "insane". So someone who decides Necromancy is their magical interest and wants to focus on that... but then chooses not to because there's a chance they might have a shorter lifespan... is not more sane than someone else. Especially considering if living longer was truly that important, they wouldn't even be going out to adventure in the first place.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I do not agree with your definition of insanity here.

You're eliding two things here. The "make your own restrictions in addition to the world and how the class works" and the "

Mechanically, you yourself are less inclined to suffer a heart attack by exercising and eating healthier. Do you do so? Every day?

There is a key difference here. I have not had a heart attack. A literal fight for your life is something some D&D characters have four times before breakfast and most have on a near daily basis. If I had had multiple heart attacks I would. You are comparing a risk decades away to a daily event.

If not, then I guess you should be considered insane for voluntarily not doing something that will keep you alive. Or what about taking additional driving courses to be stronger behind the wheel of a car as likely to die in a crash from poor driving. If you aren't making that obvious choice for longer life, then I guess you just must be mad.

If everyone I knew had crashed their cars I would - or not drive. By the time you've hit third level as a 5e character how many members of your party have never been reduced to 0hp?

You again are comparing a risk (crashing a car) that many people never have in their lifetimes and of those even when they do it's something they had no control over (a rear ender) with something that might be close to a daily event.

Possibly "has a death wish" or "is trying to commit suicide-by-monster" is a better way of putting it. Which is fine if that's what you want to play but is kinda forcing an important trait on the character.

 

[Aldarc]

To be fair, this entire thread started because Wizards is actually fixing the issue by removing the Necromancer subclass from Wizards.

True. Although of course players will still be able to play Necros by just using the 5E14 subclass, so the discussion can still stand and be had.

I'm not sure if they are removing the Necromancer subclass from Wizards any more than they are removing the Transmuter subclass from Wizards. From what I gather, the Necromancer - much like the Transmuter, Enchanter, and Conjurer - simply didn't make the cut for the 2024 PHB. The Necromancer, however, was under consideration for inclusion. I think that it's more likely that these subclasses are going to the drawing board for a later time. WotC will probably want to update these subclasses to preserve a sense of continuity with their prior character options from the 2014 PHB.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

really thats even more reason to make Necromancer into a Warlock, necromancy makes a cool theme for summoner and controller classes, but most low level cnecromancy is fear and necrotic damage rather than controlling zombies and unhallowed spectres

Necromancers are Wizards. However, Death and Undeath don't belong only to Necromancers. Clerics and Warlocks can also focus on those types of magics. Doesn't make them D&D Necromancers.

Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, aren't "Conjurers," "Enchanters," "Illusionists," or "Evokers" either, even if they like to summon, charm and beguile, or blast enemies with force and elemental energy, respectively.

Why do people want to silo one type of magic into only one class? It's not neat, clean, or symmetrical. It merely shuts down themes differentiated by a variety of class mechanics.

 

[Tonguez]

Necromancers are Wizards. However, Death and Undeath don't belong only to Necromancers. Clerics and Warlocks can also focus on those types of magics. Doesn't make them D&D Necromancers.

Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, aren't "Conjurers," "Enchanters," "Illusionists," or "Evokers" either, even if they like to summon, charm and beguile, or blast enemies with force and elemental energy, respectively.

Why do people want to silo one type of magic into only one class? It's not neat, clean, or symmetrical. It merely shuts down themes differentiated by a variety of class mechanics.

Necromancy as a School is anomaly, the other Schools are based on the "Arcane Process/Mechanics" which underly the magic effect. Necromancy however is a Theme like Pyromancer or Healer or Storm Lord or Abberant Mind.

 

[Remathilis]

really thats even more reason to make Necromancer into a Warlock, necromancy makes a cool theme for summoner and controller classes, but most low level cnecromancy is fear and necrotic damage rather than controlling zombies and unhallowed spectres

Not unless you're turning the warlock into a full caster.

The issue with the Necromancer is threefold;

1. There aren't enough necromancer spells, and they are mostly concentrated at levels 3-7.
2. The vast majority of them are evil/icky, and not suitable for certain DMs or groups.
3. The room for white/benign necromancy is swallowed up by clerics.

The first problem can be solved by adding more necromancy spells that fit at low levels, and that broaden a necromancer to being able to fight undead without being forced to be a divine caster. You can solve a lot of problems with an expansion of spell lists with targeted appropriate new spells.

 

[Horwath]

Not unless you're turning the warlock into a full caster.

The issue with the Necromancer is threefold;

1. There aren't enough necromancer spells, and they are mostly concentrated at levels 3-7.
2. The vast majority of them are evil/icky, and not suitable for certain DMs or groups.
3. The room for white/benign necromancy is swallowed up by clerics.

The first problem can be solved by adding more necromancy spells that fit at low levels, and that broaden a necromancer to being able to fight undead without being forced to be a divine caster. You can solve a lot of problems with an expansion of spell lists with targeted appropriate new spells.

maybe we should have a "gray mage" subclass,
focus on healing, necrotic damage and controlling life(restoration/resurrection) and death(animating)

 

[tetrasodium]

With the talk of "necromancy is evil/icky" talk coming back up I figure that a recent story I read about a necromancer is relevant. The main character wanted to be a mage & set out to be one, but he lacked something needed to excel at anything but the most basic spells until someone sent him to a necromancer for training. The story is especially noteworthy because throughout the whole thing it does a great job of showing all the ways everyone else is somewhat to monstrously evil while the MC never really does anything evil despite being subjected to heinous treatment by PC analogs & the law simply because he's a necromancer.

The Necromancer's End [Complete] | Royal Road

Jeremiah Thorn, a kindhearted young man who happens to be a novice necromancer, is condemned to die by an uncaring kingdom. When he is discovered by a group of adventurers, it seems his time is up--can he convince them that he's more valuable alive than dead? Drawing upon 25 years of Dungeon...

www.royalroad.com

As to animating bodies using necromancy itself, nobody is using the body... Often times that body is even dead because it was killed by the "good" cleric paladin fighter rogue or whatever.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I appreciate that a thread arguing about wizards is leaning on academic language and arguments. Well done. Drinks on me at the grad school bar off campus later.

 

[Weiley31]

True. Although of course players will still be able to play Necros by just using the 5E14 subclass, so the discussion can still stand and be had.

Don't forget the 2014 Death Domain Cleric and this:

Diablo IV Necromancer Subclass

Loving Diablo IV? Try a 5E warlock subclass inspired by the Diablo IV Necromancer character class features!

koboldpress.com