D&D (2024) Nerf to magic users?

[ECMO3]

Yeah. They sucked so badly that the vast majority of well known early high level characters were magic users. If they had been good, nobody would have played them.

Yeah because in terms of thematics Magic-Users are awesome. IMO that is one reason 5E is so popular, because wizards are the most powerful class, which mathes the thematics most want out of a fantasy game.

It is also important to note that most of those high level magic-user characters were not RAW AD&D 1E, Khelben and Elminster for example had chosen of Mystra powers that made them far more potent than a Magic-User of the same level, enev one lucky enough to get their stats.

The Magic-Users that were RAW (like Raistlin for example) were not very powerful in play, despite being godlike in the fiction written about them. RAW Bigby and Raistlan could not cast 9th level spells based on their published 1E stats.

 

[Clint_L]

The DMG had no rules that make it likely you will get an 18 with a human in 1E.

You were more likely to start with a 13 than a 17 and an 18 was unheard of.

When Unearthed Arcana came out this changed, but even with roll 9/drop 6 , the average is only 16. If this is true and it was "common" you used some kind of homebrew rules.


It was still very unlikely to get an 18 intelligence using the DMG methods

method 1: 9% chance of 18 some where, 2% chance of 18 intelligence
method 2: 5% 18 intelligence
method 3: 15% chance of 18 somewhere, 3% chance of 18 intelligence
method 4: 29% chance of 18 somewhere, 6% chance of 18 intelligence
method from Unearthed Arcana rolling a Magic-User: 18% chance of 18 Intelligence, 14% chance of 18 Dexterity, 10% chance of 18 Wisdom, 6% chance of 18 Constitution, 3% chance of 18 Charisma, 2% Chance of 18 Strength, 1% chance of 18 Comliness

So using the unearthed arcana method around 1 in 6 parties had a Magic-user with an 18 Intelligence. Somewhere around 1 in 20 parties for the other DMG methods.

1 in 20 parties? No. That's not how it actually was. In actuality, people rolled tons of characters, keeping the ones they wanted, and getting the score you wanted in a prime attribute was common. I know there were some hardcore games, but most of AD&D was not played as hardcore as is often made out. Characters lasted for years without dying. I never saw anyone level capped by their attributes. And high level magic users were very, very strong.

If you want to argue about how AD&D could have played in theory, that's fine. I don't care about that. I was there from 1979. I bought every issue of Dragon magazine. I loved that game. I'm not interested in the theory, I'm interested in what actually happened.

 

[ECMO3]

1 in 20 parties? No. That's not how it actually was. In actuality,

That is how the math is in actuality

people rolled tons of characters, keeping the ones they wanted,

Well this is one of the methods in the DMG, roll I think 12 sets of characters using 3d6, then pick one. It is method 3 or 4 above and would still mean 1 in 20 parties or so had a magic-user with an 18.

Now if you rolled hundreds and hundreds of characters, or if you used one of the other methods and rolled multiplee characters that wasn't RAW.

If you are not playing RAW Magic-Users could be a lot more powerful.

If you want to argue about how AD&D could have played in theory, that's fine. I don't care about that. I was there from 1979. I bought every issue of Dragon magazine. I loved that game. I'm not interested in the theory, I'm interested in what actually happened.

I am talking about playing RAW and that is how I started playing in 1989.

As often as not we were using premade characters, and among those magic-users were generally weak.

 

[JasonZZ]

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...

...did folks somehow miss the Sen. Armstrong reference in the second one? It's not like you were subtle.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No they still pretty much sucked at high level.

If you played RAW it was very rare for a Magic User to be more powerful than a Fighter at any level. Every race except humans had a level cap that prevented magic users from getting to high level. When it comes to humans, they got no bonus to intelligence, so over half of human Magic-Users were capped at 7th level spells and almost none had the requisite 18 to learn 9th level spells. Then you only had about a 60% chance of learning the spell you wanted each level.

Then if you have your one great spell for the day and you try to cast it in combat you will usually get interrupted and fail ..... and then probably die that same round.

Unearthed Arcana improved Magic Users some by allowing them to roll 9 dice for intelligence and specialize in a school, but it was still relatively rare to get the 18 you need for 9th level spells and this publication boosted Fighters more than other classes.

The only way for magic users to compete at all is to get legendary magic items like a Staff of Power or a Wand of Fire, but even then Fighters were still outdamaging them once Unearthed Arcana came online.

Which is totally not true. 7th levels were absolutely sufficient to never bother about anything fighters can do without heavy help from magical items.

Edit: fighters RAW without magic items or 18/51+ str or optional rules like weapon mastery did not do a lot of damage. So if you assume lesser stats for spellcasters, also do so for fighters.

And don't say, fighters had great saving throws. Yes, relatively great. But at that point the wizard just used spells without saves.

 

[Maxperson]

That is how the math is in actuality




Well this is one of the methods in the DMG, roll I think 12 sets of characters using 3d6, then pick one. It is method 3 or 4 above and would still mean 1 in 20 parties or so had a magic-user with an 18.

Now if you rolled hundreds and hundreds of characters, or if you used one of the other methods and rolled multiplee characters that wasn't RAW.

If you are not playing RAW Magic-Users could be a lot more powerful.



I am talking about playing RAW and that is how I started playing in 1989.

As often as not we were using premade characters, and among those magic-users were generally weak.

In theory, yes. In practice it was very different. I don't remember a single table I played at that used racial level limits, so people often picked a race with a +1 int bonus. Also, magical pools that raised stats, wishes for rewards, magic items, etc. meant that long before you hit 17th level, you had the 18 int needed to use 9th level spells. Often an int of 19+

You are right about the RAW math, but nobody played AD&D RAW.

 

[MichaelSomething]

...did folks somehow miss the Sen. Armstrong reference in the second one? It's not like you were subtle.

In their defense, I don't expect the average Enworlder to know about Revengance.

 

[ECMO3]

Which is totally not true. 7th levels were absolutely sufficient to never bother about anything fighters can do without heavy help from magical items.

Edit: fighters RAW without magic items or 18/51+ str or optional rules like weapon mastery did not do a lot of damage. So if you assume lesser stats for spellcasters, also do so for fighters.

Weapon specialization was not an optional rule, it was a standard rule following the publication of unearthed Arcana. Unearthed Arcana improved all classes, but it improved Fighters and Rangers more than others.

On average MU had 17.5 hps at 7th level. On a character with average rolls, a fighter optimized for damage and no strength bonus prior to unearthed arcana and wielding a Two-Handed sword will kill an average Magic User with 4 swings. This takes 2.5 rounds if the magic user does not try to cast a spell, or 2 rounds if he does try to cast. The chance of the MU getting off a spell while in melee against such a fighter is about 40% depending on which spell he is trying to cast, the casting time, and if he wins initiative.

After Unearthed Arcana an optimized Fighter optimized for damage wielding a broadsword and a handaxe with double specialization in both will kill a 7th level MU on average in 2 rounds, or in 1 round on average if the MU tries to cast a spell.

Going ranged, a Fighter with a bow will take 3 rounds to kill an average Wizard or 1 round if he has specialization.

The numbers above assume no bonuses of any kind for the fighter from strength or dex and on the second example they include the -2/-4 to hit penalty.

And don't say, fighters had great saving throws. Yes, relatively great. But at that point the wizard just used spells without saves.

Do you have an example for a 7th level Wizard to cast against a 7th level fighter.

 

[Senior_WotC_Janitor]

I just can't take these shocked YouTube faces any longer. It has almost become a meme at this point.

 

[James Gasik]

Weapon specialization was not an optional rule, it was a standard rule following the publication of unearthed Arcana. Unearthed Arcana improved all classes, but it improved Fighters and Rangers more than others.

On average MU had 17.5 hps at 7th level. On a character with average rolls, a fighter optimized for damage and no strength bonus prior to unearthed arcana and wielding a Two-Handed sword will kill an average Magic User with 4 swings. This takes 2.5 rounds if the magic user does not try to cast a spell, or 2 rounds if he does try to cast. The chance of the MU getting off a spell while in melee against such a fighter is about 40% depending on which spell he is trying to cast, the casting time, and if he wins initiative.

After Unearthed Arcana an optimized Fighter optimized for damage wielding a broadsword and a handaxe with double specialization in both will kill a 7th level MU on average in 2 rounds, or in 1 round on average if the MU tries to cast a spell.

Going ranged, a Fighter with a bow will take 3 rounds to kill an average Wizard or 1 round if he has specialization.

The numbers above assume no bonuses of any kind for the fighter from strength or dex and on the second example they include the -2/-4 to hit penalty.



Do you have an example for a 7th level Wizard to cast against a 7th level fighter.

Slow has no save, though all it does is weaken the Fighter's attacks. Fumble can do that on a successful save, and make them unable to use weapons on a failed save. Single-target Hold Person is at -3 to the save. Confusion might also work as it's saves are at -2 and have to be made each turn.

But of course, these spells take several segments to cast, and a thrown rock by the Fighter can interrupt them.