D&D (2024) Nerf to magic users?

[Maxperson]

Weapon specialization was not an optional rule, it was a standard rule following the publication of unearthed Arcana. Unearthed Arcana improved all classes, but it improved Fighters and Rangers more than others.

On average MU had 17.5 hps at 7th level. On a character with average rolls, a fighter optimized for damage and no strength bonus prior to unearthed arcana and wielding a Two-Handed sword will kill an average Magic User with 4 swings. This takes 2.5 rounds if the magic user does not try to cast a spell, or 2 rounds if he does try to cast. The chance of the MU getting off a spell while in melee against such a fighter is about 40% depending on which spell he is trying to cast, the casting time, and if he wins initiative.

After Unearthed Arcana an optimized Fighter optimized for damage wielding a broadsword and a handaxe with double specialization in both will kill a 7th level MU on average in 2 rounds, or in 1 round on average if the MU tries to cast a spell.

Going ranged, a Fighter with a bow will take 3 rounds to kill an average Wizard or 1 round if he has specialization.

The numbers above assume no bonuses of any kind for the fighter from strength or dex and on the second example they include the -2/-4 to hit penalty.



Do you have an example for a 7th level Wizard to cast against a 7th level fighter.

2e changed that, though. Once 2e came along, even with the same hit points as 1e the 2e wizard destroys the fighter because of stoneskin.

And of course in 1e if the wizard got off the fly or invisibility spell it was over as well.

 

[James Gasik]

2e changed that, though. Once 2e came along, even with the same hit points as 1e the 2e wizard destroys the fighter because of stoneskin.

And of course in 1e if the wizard got off the fly or invisibility spell it was over as well.

Stoneskin? The one that only blocks 1d4+1/2 caster level attacks? That doesn't buy them that much time from a 2e Fighter- Weapon Specialization and Two-Weapon Fighting Style Specialization gives you 3 attacks at level 7, so you're looking at 2 rounds.

Now Fly + Improved Invisibility, sure, but at this point you're in "Batman with enough prep time" levels of debate, lol.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Weapon specialization was not an optional rule, it was a standard rule following the publication of unearthed Arcana. Unearthed Arcana improved all classes, but it improved Fighters and Rangers more than others.

This is why I wrote "mastery". At least for 2e, only specialization was standard.

On average MU had 17.5 hps at 7th level. On a character with average rolls, a fighter optimized for damage and no strength bonus prior to unearthed arcana and wielding a Two-Handed sword will kill an average Magic User with 4 swings. This takes 2.5 rounds if the magic user does not try to cast a spell, or 2 rounds if he does try to cast. The chance of the MU getting off a spell while in melee against such a fighter is about 40% depending on which spell he is trying to cast, the casting time, and if he wins initiative.

Starting in melee is a strange assumption. How did the fighter get there?

After Unearthed Arcana an optimized Fighter optimized for damage wielding a broadsword and a handaxe with double specialization in both will kill a 7th level MU on average in 2 rounds, or in 1 round on average if the MU tries to cast a spell.

Again. Melee?

Going ranged, a Fighter with a bow will take 3 rounds to kill an average Wizard or 1 round if he has specialization.

Protection from nonmalgical arrows.

The numbers above assume no bonuses of any kind for the fighter from strength or dex and on the second example they include the -2/-4 to hit penalty.

Again. Melee...

Do you have an example for a 7th level Wizard to cast against a 7th level fighter.

Fly.
Protection from nonmagical arrows.

And then magic missile until fighter is dead.

Average hp of fighter woth 3d6 stats rolled: probably 5.5*7 = 37.5

Magic missile does 4d4+4 damage per cast = average of 14.
So 3 rounds.

Also we talked about late levels. Contigency has the wizard covered if the fighter somehow gets in melee...

 

[ECMO3]

2e changed that, though. Once 2e came along, even with the same hit points as 1e the 2e wizard destroys the fighter because of stoneskin.

And of course in 1e if the wizard got off the fly or invisibility spell it was over as well.

I was talking about 1e.

Niether fly nor invisibility was particularly powerful. Every 1E fighter could use a bow well, so flying is not going to help as much as it does in 5E against melee opponents.

Invisibility could be used by a MU to escape, but it is not going to win the fight, it is going to be canceled when she goes on the offensive. Also at high level characters had a chance of automatically detecting the invisible MU and if they did the -4 to hit was not going to help.

A 7th level the best chance for success would be hold person. If she won initiative and it was not interrupted and the fighter failed his save it would be over for the fighter. I would put the chance of pulling that off successfully at 1 in 5.

 

[ECMO3]

This is why I wrote "mastery".

Well I don't know what weapon mastery was in 1E.

Fly.
Protection from nonmagical arrows.

And then magic missile until fighter is dead.

Sure that would work. It would work with darts too, you don't even need magic missile. But you do need to get off both Fly and Protection from normal missiles without being interrupted and that is no small feat.

If you do it you won, but in a 1V1 more often than not you are going to be hit and lose your spell unless you start from beyond 13 inches. You will typically die before being able to cast both those spells.

In another post I mentioned Hold Person, I still think that is your best option and it is not a good one. Magic Missile right from round 1 is a decent play too though, the advantage here is the 1 segment casting time which makes it possible to get off before you get attacked. You still are still probably going to lose this fight, but if you get get lucky you might be able to pull it off.

And this post kind of illustrates the issue. We are talking about ways MU can match up to a fighter, with carefully selected spells for this fight and going nova to make it happen. Even doing that the chances of success are well below 50% in most fights against a fighter who is simply swinging his sword.

 

[James Gasik]

I was talking about 1e.

Niether fly nor invisibility was particularly powerful. Every 1E fighter could use a bow well, so flying is not going to help as much as it does in 5E against melee opponents.

Invisibility could be used by a MU to escape, but it is not going to win the fight, it is going to be canceled when she goes on the offensive. Also at high level characters had a chance of automatically detecting the invisible MU and if they did the -4 to hit was not going to help.

A 7th level the best chance for success would be hold person. If she won initiative and it was not interrupted and the fighter failed his save it would be over for the fighter. I would put the chance of pulling that off successfully at 1 in 10.

Well it depends. You could, for example, conjure a wall of iron, use the Item spell to shrink it into a piece of cloth, cast fly and turn invisible and then fly over anything you aren't particularly fond of, revert the cloth to a wall of iron and drop it on someone from 200' up and see what happens.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well I don't know what weapon mastery was in 1E.




Sure that would work. It would work with darts too, you don't even need magic missile. But you do need to get off both Fly and Protection from normal missiles without being interrupted and that is no small feat.

If you do it you won, but in a 1V1 more often than not you are going to be hit and lose your spell unless you start from beyond 13 inches. You will typically die before being able to cast both those spells.

In another post I mentioned Hold Person, I still think that is your best option and it is not a good one. Magic Missile right from round 1 is a decent play too though, the advantage here is the 1 segment casting time which makes it possible to get off before you get attacked. You still are still probably going to lose this fight, but if you get get lucky you might be able to pull it off.

And this post kind of illustrates the issue. We are talking about ways MU can match up to a fighter, with carefully selected spells for this fight and going nova to make it happen. Even doing that the chances of success are well below 50% in most fights against a fighter who is simply swinging his sword.

Ok. Probably in 1e it was better than in 2e then.
Again, i don't think melee is a good assumption.

My 2 spells were examples. There are other options.

 

[ECMO3]

This is why I wrote "mastery". At least for 2e, only specialization was standard.

Starting in melee is a strange assumption. How did the fighter get there?

Again. Melee?

It is not going to be much different with a bow .... with specialization and a bow it will be worse.

And keep in mind virtually all fighters could use a bow effectively, it is not like 1E where melee guys could not range.

Protection from nonmalgical arrows.

If she managed to get it off without being hit, which is not likely when I need a 4 to hit ... or a 9 if she is 600 feet away.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is not going to be much different with a bow .... with specialization and a bow it will be worse.

And keep in mind virtually all fighters could use a bow effectively, it is not like 1E where melee guys could not range.



If she managed to get it off without being hit, which is not likely when I need a 4 to hit ... or a 9 if she is 600 feet away.

Ok. Maybe 1e was more generous towards fighters than 2e. My experience with 2e was that from level 7 and beyond, fighters only had chance if they surprised wizards somehow. I need to look up how initiative and range increments worked in 1e.

But if the wizard gets of a single spell, it usually means game over for the fighter.

 

[Maxperson]

Stoneskin? The one that only blocks 1d4+1/2 caster level attacks? That doesn't buy them that much time from a 2e Fighter- Weapon Specialization and Two-Weapon Fighting Style Specialization gives you 3 attacks at level 7, so you're looking at 2 rounds.

That's plenty of time to cast necessary spells to beat the fighter.

Now Fly + Improved Invisibility, sure, but at this point you're in "Batman with enough prep time" levels of debate, lol.

Nah. Stoneskin gives you time to cast those or anything else you want.