1 Sneak Attack per Round?

[Stargher]

Well I never...

Our (my D&D groups) games have not yet passed the 9th level, so we decided to try it out between 20th lvl NPC from DMG. What we found out was this, between a fighter and a rogue all that counts is initiative. If the fighter wins, he'll deal the 70 or so points needed before the Rogue can act. If the Rogue wins, he'll deal more than enough to kill the fighter...

In the first simulated combat the fighter dealt 60 points of damage with a single critical blow. So let's stop bitching about how overpowerded the Rogue is since it all comes down to initiative.

 

[reapersaurus]

Re: Well I never...

In the first simulated combat the fighter dealt 60 points of damage with a single critical blow. So let's stop bitching about how overpowerded the Rogue is since it all comes down to initiative.

I can't resist.
You people are just serving them up, and I can't stop spiking them...

Hmmm... I WONDER who would win initiative between a fighter and a rogue.
I'll give you one guess.

Oh - I was under the impression it was a rational discussion about facts, but you can distort it by using the word "whining" if you prefer.

At least you didn't continue the personal attacks to try to dodge the point of the thread.
*cough ad hominem! cough *

 

[Numion]

reapersaurus you should play in a game even once with a rogue in it. It's not like others just sit back and do nothing in non-combat situations which the rogue 'dominates' as you say. The fact that rogue gets more skill points doesn't mean he's better at some skills than other characters; due to the max rank cap (level +3) he's not better at skills, he's just got more skills he's maxed out. And players tend to max out the few skills they can instead of sucking at many.

Rogue does not dominate non-combat situations. Never has, never will.

The point of twentieth level rogue dealing a maximum of 30d6 against a single opponent is moot when 20th level mage deals 30d6 to multiple opponents. (Twice empowered cone of cold, for example).

The rogue doesn't outshine fighters or mages in combat.
the rogue doesn't outshine other classes in non-combat situations. It's a retarded claim that they could somehow dominate non-combat situations. Only players can do that, but not any characters.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Well I never...

I can't resist.
You people are just serving them up, and I can't stop spiking them...

Hmmm... I WONDER who would win initiative between a fighter and a rogue.
I'll give you one guess.

In many cases the fighter. Since the fighter has as great an incentive to have a high dexterity as the rogue, and has many more feats, allowing him to take Improved Initiative much more easily, many fighters have initiative bonuses that are equal to or greater than that of the rogues that they face.

You can believe you are "spiking" things, but you are sadly mistaken.

Oh - I was under the impression it was a rational discussion about facts, but you can distort it by using the word "whining" if you prefer.

Well, that is the best description for most of your posts.

 

[bret]

And bret - i can't believe your 'argument'.
Wizards typically have as many skills as rogues?
Right.

I said they come close to having as many skill points as rogue. You said that the rogue gets over twice as many skill points as a regular class.

Standard array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Normally, the wizard is going to put the 15 in Int while the Rogue puts in in Dex.

Many people put the 14 in Con. Doesn't matter what class you are, the additional hit points are extremely useful.

If the rogue puts the 13 or 12 in Int they will have 8 + 1 skill points per level, while the Wizard has 2 + 2 skill points per level.

Take it to level 4 and the Wizard jumps to a total of 5 vs. 9.

Take it to level 8 and the Wizard goes into the LoreMaster PrC so they have 4 + 3 = 7 vs. 9. Note that the LoreMaster doesn't give up any spellcasting ability to get all those nifty skill points.

Take it to level 12 and the Wizard is at 8 vs. 9.

Now figure in magical items. The Wizard is likely to have a Headband of Int, while the Rogue is more likely to go after Gloves of Dex or Amulet of Health.

At 12th level, the Wizard/Loremaster should be able to afford an item of Int +4, so they are at 10 vs. 9. Even if the Rogue had put the 14 in Int, they would be at 10 vs. 10 skill points per level.

Even a straight Wizard is most likely getting 8 skill points a level.


Notice I did this with the Standard Array. Allow a different point buy system (where the wizard can start with an 18), and the results tend to converge a lot faster.


The rogue certainly doesn't have over twice as many skill points as the wizard, and when you get to the high levels it is possible that the wizard (because of the HUGE advantage they have from concentrating on only one attribute) could exceed the number of skill points per level that a Rogue gets. As I said, it depends on the method used for determining attributes but the Wizard can come close to as many skill points per level as a Rogue.



Rather than have someone else speak for you reapersaurus, I am still interested in what you believe the rogue's place in a group is. Show me how the rogue is something that would still be feared after you either limit it to one sneak attack per round or do something else to reduce it's combat effectiveness.


[ Edit: Fixed minimum level required for LoreMaster. Need 10 ranks in two knowledge skills, the skill caps prevent this from happening until 7th level. Minimum level for Loremaster is 8th. ]

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Challenge to end the nonsense

Reapersaurus et al, may I offer a solution? Someone should design a pair of parties of four characters of the same level, one with a rogue who can sneak attack multiple times, and one who can't. The party characters should have reasonable stats. Run them through a dungeon. See if the rogue who can sneak attack multiple times is "too good". See if the rogue who can only sneak attack once "sucks". Due to my experience in a statistics course, I suggest you do this challenge multiple times.

What do you say?

 

[SpikeyFreak]

A rogue is 1000% times better at EVERYthing in D&D than a fighter outside of combat.

I just ahve to throw more wood on this fire.

I disagree. Rogues are better at ALMOST everything.

Who is better at bashing in doors? Who is better at carrying loot? Who is better at pulling the cart out of the mud. Who is better at crafting weapons? Who is better with horses?

In most cases, the fighter will be better at those things.

The rogue would be better at just about everything else though.

--Evil Spikey

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Look at it differently.

A rogue is 1000% times better at EVERYthing in D&D than a fighter outside of combat.
I'm sure that's undisputed, no?

IN combat, he is easily 75% as good as a fighter over the long haul. He is better than a fighter in some circumstances, and worse in most.

No one sees a problem with that disparity?

No I do not.

Because even if I accept your conclusions of relative merit in different areas, I know in real play this disparity means a lot less than the sterile numbers suggest.

What really matters is that the players enjoy the game. And in order to enjoy the game that usually means that they get to have their PC have their dramatic shining moments where they demonstrate their heroic competence.

In fact, a "75% as good as a fighter" combatant is not going to outshine the real McCoy very often at all. Maybe 20% of the time if not less.

And outside of combat, guess what? The Rogue does not hog the glory. That is because 95% of our roleplaying interactions are with regular NPCs who do not have meaningul Diplomacy, Bluff, or Sense Motive checks. So the Fighter or Cleric or Wizard who happens to be talking to an interesting NPC just roleplays it out and their unskilled Cha 10 roll is adequate to the task most of the time. The gall of those classes stepping on the Rogue's toes!

So while the Rogue may be 1000% better at social skills, the Fighter will indeed steal away the spotlight in social interactions a significant amount of the time (as well as other characters). Darn those roleplayers!

Scouting... Well, you got me there. The Fighter loses out on that one. Of course those annoying Rangers and Druids and Wizards keep stealing the spotlight from the Rogue there, too.

If you want to tally a meaningful score, don't look at minmaxing average HP damage per round. Look at how many times each PC made a significant contribution that made the player really proud of his character. If you keep that score, I do not think you will find a big disparity.

 

[Albereth]

Well, I just checked my rogue who is currently 10th level. The stats are Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 12. All the characters in our group were rolled and not point purchased. After all was done we took an average and then equalized everyone to that average which was 45 pts, which interestingly was where the rogue started before changes were made. Yes, they are a bit high but this has not stopped them from dieing.

I have ranks in 15 skills and not one of them is maxed out. The skill and the 'Ranks' follow. This is before any stat modifications etc are added in just pure ranks which would cap at 13 due to being 10th level.

Balance - 7
Bluff - 10
Climb - 7
Escape Artist - 9
Hide - 10
Listen - 10
Move Silently - 8
Perform - 5
Search - 10
Sense Motive - 7
Spot - 10
Disable Device - 11
Open Lock - 8
Tumble - 8
Use Magic Device - 10

Any rogue would probably be using a very similar spread of skills. So, yes, the rogue gets a lot of skill points but they are normally spread amongst a plethora of skills. The bluff skill could have been brought lower as I do not tend to use it much at all, same with the Sense Motive but both are still very useful. I picked up ranks in Perform as I was thinking about going to the Shadowdancer but have chosen to stay pure rogue instead. So with a skill cap of 13 the closest to being maxed out is the Disable Device at 11, then a couple very important skills at 10.

As to who gets initiative during a round. I have a +5 bonus to initiative. Interestingly, I do not always go first but I admit that for the most part I do go first a great amount of time. Guess what I do? Usually try to duck into shadows or fire my bow while I let the tanks get into the combat first.

At 10th level my AC is 19 Normal, 19 Flat-Footed and 16 Touch. The fighter and paladin in our group both are at AC 24 for normal and the cleric is at AC 21. Hmmmm, our Mage is AC 17. For hit points, the Fighter has 98, the Paladin has 75, the Cleric has 70, the Wizard has 47, and I have 54. One thing to realize, I am 10th level while the Fighter, Cleric, and Wizard are 9th level and the Paladin is 8th level. The reason for this is due to the fact that I have not died yet. Not that the DM has not tried but I do not tend to put myself in over extended circumstances. We have never had a full party wipe out. At most we lose one character. The cleric has actually died twice but we had to kill him once when he turned into a wererat and failed his save to kick it 8)

Have I had my share of save the party? yup, you betcha I have and most of those have been due to my planning and getting the drop on someone. I remember one encounter where everyone but myself was under a hold person. This was early and we did not realize that Hold Person allowed you to coup de grace the person held so we might have come close to a full wipe out there. I snuck into the chamber after everyone else was in and worked my way around the outer reaches. I managed to get behind the evil cleric and sneak attack him just as the others were coming out of teh hold. The cleric then proceeded to take me to -7 hit points and then drop when the fighter came up and finished him off. Hey, saving the parties arses is fun and I never let them forget that it is normally the rogue that ends up doing it though the fighter has saved my bacon on more than one occasion.

 

[IceBear]

If you want to tally a meaningful score, don't look at minmaxing average HP damage per round. Look at how many times each PC made a significant contribution that made the player really proud of his character. If you keep that score, I do not think you will find a big disparity.

Bravo! Perfect analysis.

Reaper, it's a game where players and the DM want to have fun. If in your campaign that means neutering the rogue, then do so. We're just telling you, as intelligent players, that we haven't *experienced* this problem to the extend you claim it exists.

Trust me, if something becomes a problem for our groups, we will notice it and take steps. We haven't noticed this as a problem, you have.

IceBear