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D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
Can a wizard make one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a spell?

Can a wizard make a creature he or she just hit with a weapon suffer disadvantage on the next spell the wizard casts at it?

Can a wizard teleport 30ft by using action surge?


Maybe you have some special limited edition single print of the PHB, but the one I have doesn't have the wizard doing that. Therefore, no imagination is necessary. The wizard cannot do everything an EK does.
Sure, whatever. You can be absolutely literal where it helps your thinking, if you like.

You"win"!

There is absolutely no way to make a Warlord without ruining the PDK.

I can't believe I thought otherwise. More fool I.

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
This constant, disingenuous attempt to relate EKs with wizards has gotten so old. They are nothing alike. They flimsily cross over in one aspect. One. That the EK uses the wizard's spell list (and for the majority of their career, only a tiny fraction of it at that). That's it. So please stop muddying the waters with terrible comparisons that do nothing for your argument other than cause eye-rolling.
If you say so. No one was EVER trying to say that the Wizard and the EK were the same. We were attempting to illustrate that, in a similar way, the game has room for both a Warlord and a PDK.


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Corwin

Explorer
The unscientific poll at the top of this page is a small (very small) step up from any wild speculation about the existence, let alone results, of research WotC may or may not have done, but for some reason kept strictly secret from their fanbase.
And there are entire states, every presidential election, that are stunned at the results. They simply cannot believe how it turned out. See the connection...?
 

Corwin

Explorer
If you say so. No one was EVER trying to say that the Wizard and the EK were the same. We were attempting to illustrate that, in a similar way, the game has room for both a Warlord and a PDK.
"We"? You may have been. But I wasn't speaking only to you. Also, please don't make the mistake of assuming* you are speaking for everyone.



[*you know what happens when you assume...]
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And there are entire states, every presidential election, that are stunned at the results. They simply cannot believe how it turned out. See the connection...?
Clearly. No matter how much WotC may poll the fanbase, they can't be certain of their interpretations of the resulting data - something that tests well may do poorly. Such are the vagaries of business.

I don't see how it helps your wild speculation about WotC market research that you haven't seen, that may or may not even have been undertaken.

Sure, anything could happen. People'll surprise you sometimes.
Nobody knows that better than a DM... ;)

Did you intend to misrepresent what I said?
No, I intended to contrast what you implied with some equally-valid hearsay.

the EK uses the wizard's spell list (and for the majority of their career, only a tiny fraction of it at that). That's it.
That's exactly what makes the parallel so strong. The EK is prettymuch all fighter, like all fighter archetypes. But at third, he gets a couple of spells from the wizard list, as he levels, he eventually gets a number of them spread out over 4 levels. That's all the wizard there is to the EK. /Very little/, but more than taking Magic Initiate, say.

Similarly, the BM is all fighter, but he has a handful of maneuvers that are comparable to the kinds of things the Warlord did, and he can start with 3 of them (just about all of them, unless we're being terribly generous). Over time, he can get every other maneuver on his list of 16 that's remotely warlord-like. Though, not as many as the EK learns spells, and not from an expanding list, and not scaling with spell slots.

So, yeah, the BM is a teeny bit Warlord, just like the EK is a teeny bit Wizard.
Just an even teenier bit.
Same with the PDK, it's just completely inflexible, as well.


If you say so. No one was EVER trying to say that the Wizard and the EK were the same. We were attempting to illustrate that, in a similar way, the game has room for both a Warlord and a PDK.
Nod. The point is that the former aren't the same, and the latter wouldn't be the same, either.

I mean, we have no example of a sub-class of one class that is entirely obviated by a different class. It's hard to think how one could even be designed, since the hypothetical uberclass would have to subsume the base class, as well, to co-opt any synergies between it and the sub-class targeted for inferiority.

Can a wizard make one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a spell?
Take Remathilis' Warlord, above. Can it take a second action in the same round? No. Can it regain hps as it heals others? No.

See how that works? The PDK is a fighter sub-class, it's got the fighter's focus on DPR, and it's warlordish stuff are riders on those fighter features, features that a hypothetical Warlord full class shouldn't have.

Therefore, no imagination is necessary. The wizard cannot do everything an EK does.
And, for the same sorts of reasons, no hypothetical warlord should do everything the PDK does. Heck, a big part of the need for a full class Warlord is that the Fighter chassis does too much un-warlord-ly tanky-DPR stuff, there's not enough design space in a fighter archetype to fill out the warlord's past abilities.

The nonsense uberclass you're envisioning would be a hard fail for warlord fans, too.
 
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
"We"? You may have been. But I wasn't speaking only to you. Also, please don't make the mistake of assuming* you are speaking for everyone.



[*you know what happens when you assume...]
I would never do such a thing. By "we" I meant everyone I have read that has mentioned it. It is very possible that someone, somewhere meant otherwise but I haven't seen it.

I only brought it up at all because I thought it would be a better example than the Theurge (because that doesn't "really" exist and it also really steps on the Cleric's toes.) I picked it ramdomly over the Arcane Trickster.

At any rate, I have forgotten yet again why I got involved in this in the first place. I don't really care about the Warlord, I just find the arguments against it, while obviously full of passion, to lack a certain... logic.

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't really care about the Warlord,
There's your problem: lack of confirmation bias. You can't really dive deeply into these things and enjoy the back-and-forth nonsense if you aren't overly invested. ;)

I just find the arguments against it, while obviously full of passion, to lack a certain... logic.
I was wondering if that was /my/ confirmation bias. ;)

Hey, if I display any obvious ill-logic in threads like this, feel free to call me on it. /Especially/ if it's a topic you don't much care about otherwise.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], Sacrosanct's criticism of your assertion is what I would echo as well, though I agree with your point regarding the desire for an "official" WotC vs. 3pp/homebrew.

Since I cannot actually see Sacrosanct's posts, I'm not sure what criticism you're echoing. But, from what you've quoted here, I'd point out that there really isn't any way of knowing that. If someone was unhappy with what WotC is putting out but is happy with going the 3pp route, then they'd be in the 2%. If someone is happy with what WotC is putting out, they likely don't care about 3pp. After all, why would they be looking into 3pp material if they are content with what WotC is putting out?

I sure there is some overlap, fair enough. But, honestly, we cannot actually know how much.

The thing is, and this was the point I was making to [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION], saying that we should be content with 3pp is kinda pointless. We've had 3pp warlords for TWO YEARS. If people were content with that, then we wouldn't have these threads. And, IMO, it's just another tactic to shut down conversation. Because, if he's right, then we shouldn't be discussing the warlord. We have the warlord and that should be the end of it. But, since people are obviously not content with 3pp, for whatever reason (and I note that simply writing off someone who wants to play in Organized Play is a pretty dick move), then bringing up 3pp doesn't really matter.

It's no different, really than telling people who want to play a Warlord that they'd be better off playing 4e. It's the same rhetorical strategy.
 

Hussar

Legend
Quote Originally Posted by Sacrosanct View Post
Can a wizard make one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a spell?

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?528592-5e-Warlord-Demand-Poll/page62#ixzz4dG92ufcW

Any 5th level wizard can cast Haste and make a weapon attack after casting a spell. Granted, not as a bonus action though.

OTOH, there's no reason a wizard cannot make an off hand attack with a weapon as a bonus action. I can do that at 1st level as a wizard, don't even need to be a 3rd level character to do it. Sure, I lose stat bonus to damage, making the EK better at it, but, it's not like I cannot do it at all.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
I mean, if you apply the 3pp thing, you just hit a slippery slope.

We don't need psionics, just use a 3PP one
We don't need Ebberon, just use a 3PP one
We don't need Planescape, just use a 3PP one
We don't need any updated monsters, just use a 3PP one
We don't need adventures, just use a 3PP one

Why have any books in that case? Why desire anything when a 3PP or homebrew can provide?
 

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