Because potential female gamers are really crying out for explorations of feminist themes of objectification and subservience!
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5th Edition and the Female Demographic
- Thread starter Kaodi
- Start date
Because potential female gamers are really crying out for explorations of feminist themes of objectification and subservience!
Mark CMG
Creative Mountain Games
The two women in my current group (though, really, everyone in the group), one early twenties and one in her thirties, most enjoy the narrative aspects of character development. Whether that is done with combat involved or not, exploration in remote places or just kicking about town, solving a mystery, performing a quest or mission, etc. all of that is secondary to finding ways to have their character grow and pursue goals while being challenged on a personal level. From this, retrospectively, narratives both short and long can be discerned and that engenders a satisfying experience.
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
Nor have I.
This. It can only happen in steps and the first step is to target geeks, not non-geeks, and specifically the hipster geek. Once the hipsters are done with it you can start to expand towards the Twilight demographic (or whatever is the crossover subject of the time).
I also get the feeling from this thread that many consider being a "geek" as somehow being a male term. It's like Harry Potter never happened.
Stormonu
Legend
I don't think anything really needs to be changed to "target" women. My current group of 5 consists of 3 women as it is, and since at least 1989, I've always had at least one lady in the group (not counting my wife-to-be at that). My first encounter with female gamers was actually back in 1980 (and I started in December, 1979).
As someone else stated, it's not the game that's I've seen be the problem, but the attitude of the folks at the table.
In the end though, I like the 3E/Pathfinder game as it is. I don't want to see changes made that would make me lose interest in an attempt to attract a demographic that might just ignore it (i.e., a bird in hand is worth two in a bush).
As someone else stated, it's not the game that's I've seen be the problem, but the attitude of the folks at the table.
In the end though, I like the 3E/Pathfinder game as it is. I don't want to see changes made that would make me lose interest in an attempt to attract a demographic that might just ignore it (i.e., a bird in hand is worth two in a bush).
I think if you have women in your group some of the obstacles could be handled by 'knowing your group'. Design NPCs, heroes and heroines, that are not objectified but rather genuine. Particularly with female NPCs focus efforts on less big breasted bar maids and the chauvinistic gameresque guy jokes and create some NPCs that are heroines and even animals personified. Look for plots that have some depth of romance, social problem solving and that focus less on combat but don't completely eliminate it. Perhaps it might be enticing if rewards included more magical clothes and jewels. I also have seen in my time some female GMs that made some very creative game worlds that depended more on magically rich settings with floating cities and mystical places that garner much interest and would pull anyone's interest into the game be it guy or girl. In essence its the same as running any group though, design and run a game your players will like.
Gilladian
Adventurer
As a female roleplayer (DnD being my primary game) since I was eleven (a LONG time ago) and the only DM most of the time, I can say for certain that much of what is being said "above" in this thread doesn't hold true for me.
I began playing because LOTR and Narnia were my main reading staples. I LOVED fantasy - and I like combat just fine. I enjoy building my characters, but I do admit I'm not a "rules optimizer". I build to be reasonably effective in a reasonable amount of time, nothing more or less.
I LOVE exploration, puzzles, sandboxy games, creating my own plot, following the DM's plotline, etc... I don't think I'm typical of "female gamers", but then, I'm not typical of "all gamers" either.
I like lower level but not particularly gritty play, where characters are still at least vaguely "realistic". Does that mean other women will? Nope.
I have to admit I did get patronized by guys a few times in day - but you know what? When they found out that I was the one running the game that EVERYONE else wanted to play, they either stopped, or they didn't get invited back. It helped that even as a 14 year old, I had a brother and a boyfriend who gamed with me, but I was also the kind who just DIDN'T give that kind of crap any credence. I always presumed that a patronizing jerk was genuinely being helpful, and I'd thank him sincerely, and go about my business. I was told years later by several people that I left a number of guys absolutely floored by my unflappability; I just never noticed!
To get back to the original question; women will play DnD when they feel like it. Having "female groups" does help. I ran games at my women's college in the 90's and recruited a number of new players; some are still playing today. But we always played mixed gender groups; females are used to guys always being around!
I began playing because LOTR and Narnia were my main reading staples. I LOVED fantasy - and I like combat just fine. I enjoy building my characters, but I do admit I'm not a "rules optimizer". I build to be reasonably effective in a reasonable amount of time, nothing more or less.
I LOVE exploration, puzzles, sandboxy games, creating my own plot, following the DM's plotline, etc... I don't think I'm typical of "female gamers", but then, I'm not typical of "all gamers" either.
I like lower level but not particularly gritty play, where characters are still at least vaguely "realistic". Does that mean other women will? Nope.
I have to admit I did get patronized by guys a few times in day - but you know what? When they found out that I was the one running the game that EVERYONE else wanted to play, they either stopped, or they didn't get invited back. It helped that even as a 14 year old, I had a brother and a boyfriend who gamed with me, but I was also the kind who just DIDN'T give that kind of crap any credence. I always presumed that a patronizing jerk was genuinely being helpful, and I'd thank him sincerely, and go about my business. I was told years later by several people that I left a number of guys absolutely floored by my unflappability; I just never noticed!
To get back to the original question; women will play DnD when they feel like it. Having "female groups" does help. I ran games at my women's college in the 90's and recruited a number of new players; some are still playing today. But we always played mixed gender groups; females are used to guys always being around!
SarahDarkmagic
First Post
This topic is one I think about a lot. As a few people have mentioned, I'm not sure the goal should be to get more "women" into gaming. That's way too broad of a category and there's so much difference between women that it's near impossible to come up with a strategy. Even if we can make broad generalizations about women (and that's pretty controversial), it's pretty unlikely that those generalizations will help us with an individual woman.
If we concentrate on women who enjoy fantasy, especially those who enjoy computer and video game fantasy RPGs, it becomes a bit easier.
One thing that might help is to recognize as valid other ways of playing the game. This would help not only get more women to play, but more men as well. Not everyone enjoys playing the same way and even within the traditional view of how to play D&D, there's a wide variance.
Shifting emphasis to overcoming challenges and away from overcoming challenges by killing creatures might help. I don't think this will water down the game to a point where men wouldn't enjoy it anymore as Burning Wheel and The One Ring both do this and what I hear from the OSR community is that they like this way of playing as well. Schwalb's Reexamining the Dungeon also discussed this a bit by tying XP to accomplishing an objective rather than to killing monsters.
Also recognizing the mastery comes in multiple forms. Not everyone, regardless of gender, cares about character optimization but a fair number of online communities seem to emphasize it and assume that all players will "evolve" to the point of seeking that type of system mastery. This can reinforce personal opinions about who plays and why without necessarily reflecting the broader audience.
While the people at the table have a profound effect on whether or not an individual woman decides to play, there are things that game companies could do. Paizo and WotC both have worked on getting a greater diversity of female characters in the artwork. But one area where I see room for improvement is in the gear available for characters. Most of the gear is still masculine or unisex. What's awesome is that gear doesn't require a lot of system knowledge. Articles or even books on gear would be a great entry point for women who are new to the game or maybe new to design to add to the game without taking away anything from other parts of the game.
Actually, in general, encouraging the women who currently are playing to share their experiences and produce fan and professional content for the game would help tremendously.
Sorry, I got a bit carried away with this. I hope you all don't mind too much.
If we concentrate on women who enjoy fantasy, especially those who enjoy computer and video game fantasy RPGs, it becomes a bit easier.
One thing that might help is to recognize as valid other ways of playing the game. This would help not only get more women to play, but more men as well. Not everyone enjoys playing the same way and even within the traditional view of how to play D&D, there's a wide variance.
Shifting emphasis to overcoming challenges and away from overcoming challenges by killing creatures might help. I don't think this will water down the game to a point where men wouldn't enjoy it anymore as Burning Wheel and The One Ring both do this and what I hear from the OSR community is that they like this way of playing as well. Schwalb's Reexamining the Dungeon also discussed this a bit by tying XP to accomplishing an objective rather than to killing monsters.
Also recognizing the mastery comes in multiple forms. Not everyone, regardless of gender, cares about character optimization but a fair number of online communities seem to emphasize it and assume that all players will "evolve" to the point of seeking that type of system mastery. This can reinforce personal opinions about who plays and why without necessarily reflecting the broader audience.
While the people at the table have a profound effect on whether or not an individual woman decides to play, there are things that game companies could do. Paizo and WotC both have worked on getting a greater diversity of female characters in the artwork. But one area where I see room for improvement is in the gear available for characters. Most of the gear is still masculine or unisex. What's awesome is that gear doesn't require a lot of system knowledge. Articles or even books on gear would be a great entry point for women who are new to the game or maybe new to design to add to the game without taking away anything from other parts of the game.
Actually, in general, encouraging the women who currently are playing to share their experiences and produce fan and professional content for the game would help tremendously.
Sorry, I got a bit carried away with this. I hope you all don't mind too much.
I think that if you have to "wiggle out" of offending someone, you're on the wrong track. Do not plan to have your character viewed a certain way based on logical technicality.
You'd have a hard enough row to hoe in getting people to accept machines fitting to human gender roles to begin with, I think. Star Trek's Data managed it by being a unique creation designed on the creator's form. If they are a race of machines, it is harder to make that one stick.
gozer87
First Post
I agree with those posters who pointed out that it is more about the gaming group than the game itself. If the group is full of frat boy humour and only views NPC women as objects to ogle and conquer, female players prolly won't flock to that group.
Given the explosion of "Urban Fantasy" as a literary genre, I would think a game set in that genre might serve as a gateway game. OTOH, women may feel that it's pandering to them and avoid it. Puzzles like that are why I don't work in marketing.
Given the explosion of "Urban Fantasy" as a literary genre, I would think a game set in that genre might serve as a gateway game. OTOH, women may feel that it's pandering to them and avoid it. Puzzles like that are why I don't work in marketing.
Certainly, certainly...but since the effect is that they both capture larger than typical female viewership, crossover and primarily female friendly fare serve the same purpose for our goal- and strong crossover appeal minimizes the risk of turning off the young male demographic.
(And it IS a risk: look at metal/hard rock in the 1980s. The more popular the power ballads of the hair bands became, the smaller the number of guys who went to their shows and bought their merch. This cost some bands their contracts, since there simply wasn't a big enough rocker girl demographic who wanted that to support many bands.)
In addition, there is the oft-repeated testimony that many of the actresses, writers & other participants in the creative processes that give us the female friendly fare- including pure money types- that it was the crossover stuff that drew them in and helped shape their creativity. In a sense, you don't get Twilight without Buffy.
