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D&D 5E 5th Edition -- Caster Rule, Martials Drool?

Jack the Lad

Explorer
Well you made the definitive statement so what were your experiences?

Also, wow... whose had enough time to play the game up to level 12 since it was released?

Nothing's forcing you to start at level 1! We've hopped around at several levels, (up to 20) and found a whole bunch of interesting/broken things so far:

  • Resilient (Con) + War Caster allows casters to essentially never fail Concentration checks because of damage (up to 99.8% odds of passing DC10).
  • Necromancers can summon ridiculous numbers of skeletons, which are perfect dungeon-clearing tools and do surprisingly large amounts of damage.
  • 5e's flexible spell prep and rituals system means casters sacrifice less than ever before to have their plot-breakingly versatile utility toolkit on tap.
  • Bards can poach Ranger/Paladin capstone (level 5) spells starting at level 10, when Rangers/Paladins only gain access to them at level 17. By poaching smites the Bard can easily outdamage a Fighter.
  • Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster casting is pretty pitiful (level 4+ spells are where it's at, and they only get 1).
  • Even though the Sorceror is worse overall than the Wizard, Heighten Spell is utterly broken.
  • Magic Jar allows you to permanently (until dispelled) take over another creature's body while simultaneously trapping their soul in a jar, able to perceive its surroundings but not to move or act in any way. Nightmarish. And overpowered - you retain your Int/Wis/Cha scores and class features, so it's a great way for a frail Wizard to get a big beefy body.
  • Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.
  • Monsters can eat OAs for breakfast, and keeping track of who's engaged with what is hard without a grid.
  • A bunch of spell-specific stuff; Forcecage and Reverse Gravity neutering melee opponents with no save, Levitate allowing low level casters to cheese encounters with melee opponents by floating out of reach, Misty Step allowing Wizards to escape grapples, Animate Objects being the best thing ever for moving heavy stuff. Also Alter Self Flight from level 3, which I was glad to see was nerfed at release.
  • Counterspell is absolutely crazy, and although it burns through spell slots it allows PC Wizards to shut down enemy spellcasters entirely. We had one very anticlimatic boss fight because of this. I'm amazed it wasn't changed for release.
  • Blaster-wizards veer between oneshotting a group of enemies and feeling like the biggest badass ever and chipping away at a big enemy and feeling pitiful.
  • Flame spells are surprisingly hard to use in built up areas unless you have no sense of right or wrong.
 
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mcintma

First Post
Casters are no threat to outshine in this edition.

Few spells slots of higher level, non-autoscaling spells, generally nerfed spells, lower save DCs ...

Maybe if every day was a 5MWD, OK, perhaps.
 

Jack the Lad

Explorer
Casters are no threat to outshine in this edition.

Few spells slots of higher level, non-autoscaling spells, generally nerfed spells, lower save DCs ...

Maybe if every day was a 5MWD, OK, perhaps.

I've played a bunch of PF and a little 3.5, and 5e is definitely a big improvement from both in terms of limiting Wizards - particularly the Concentration mechanic, though that mostly for the hard limit on spells-at-a-time rather than breaking spells with damage (at least at higher levels).

But from what I've seen casters are definitely, absolutely still the class(es) to beat.

What's making you say this? What spells have the casters in your game been picking?
 

Evenglare

Adventurer
[*]Resilient (Con) + War Caster allows casters to essentially never fail Concentration checks because of damage (99% odds of passing DC10).
--It's dc 10 or half damage taken. You need to go back and read the rules. Warcaster or Resilient does nothing to lessen the damage, only add proficiency bonus to con and gives you advantage on saving.


[*]Necromancers can summon ridiculous numbers of skeletons, which are perfect dungeon-clearing tools and do surprisingly large amounts of damage.
--At high levels? Seems like the high level monsters could take out swaths of skeletons pretty easily. Also you keep forgetting that you need bodies and bones and components. If you have a million bodies then sure. But all of thse points seem to not be taking into account the game world, just a vacuum where everything you possibly need is given to you.


[*]5e's flexible spell prep and rituals system means casters sacrifice less than ever before to have their plot-breakingly versatile utility toolkit on tap.
--Most high level spells can only be cast once per days, and require an extremely cost amount of materials. I don't see this a broken at all. We have no idea how much gold you should have at high levels/


[*]Bards can poach Ranger/Paladin capstone (level 5) spells starting at level 10, when Rangers/Paladins only gain access to them at level 17. By poaching smites the Bard can easily outdamage a Fighter.
--I have no earthly idea why you think smite is a spell you can steal? It's a class feature. This point is completely and utterly incorrect usage of rules.


[*]Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster casting is pretty pitiful (level 4+ spells are where it's at, and they only get 1).
--They aren't casters primarily, you seem to conveniently ignore all the other stuff they get. Strawman argument yes?


[*]Even though the Sorceror is worse overall than the Wizard, Heighten Spell is utterly broken.
--I don't see the problem, you spend resources to give a creature disadvantage on saving throws of a spell? Okay.... ?


[*]Magic Jar allows you to permanently (until dispelled) take over another creature's body while simultaneously trapping their soul in a jar, able to perceive its surroundings but not to move or act in any way. Nightmarish. And overpowered - you retain your Int/Wis/Cha scores and class features, so it's a great way for a frail Wizard to get a big beefy body.
--Until the container is destroyed of course. You don't seem to be taking creatures into account with any of these points. Probably because we don't have the monster manual and you are looking at everything within a vacuum and not within the context of the game world.


[*]Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.
--I don't understand why this is a problem? Seems like you are grasping at this point. Perhaps you think everyone needs the same complexity? In which case 5e simply isn't for you and thats OK. You can find another game you enjoy.
 
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Ashkelon

First Post
Nothing's forcing you to start at level 1! We've hopped around at several levels, (up to 20) and found a whole bunch of interesting/broken things so far:

  • Resilient (Con) + War Caster allows casters to essentially never fail Concentration checks because of damage (up to 99.8% odds of passing DC10).
  • Necromancers can summon ridiculous numbers of skeletons, which are perfect dungeon-clearing tools and do surprisingly large amounts of damage.
  • 5e's flexible spell prep and rituals system means casters sacrifice less than ever before to have their plot-breakingly versatile utility toolkit on tap.
  • Bards can poach Ranger/Paladin capstone (level 5) spells starting at level 10, when Rangers/Paladins only gain access to them at level 17. By poaching smites the Bard can easily outdamage a Fighter.
  • Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster casting is pretty pitiful (level 4+ spells are where it's at, and they only get 1).
  • Even though the Sorceror is worse overall than the Wizard, Heighten Spell is utterly broken.
  • Magic Jar allows you to permanently (until dispelled) take over another creature's body while simultaneously trapping their soul in a jar, able to perceive its surroundings but not to move or act in any way. Nightmarish. And overpowered - you retain your Int/Wis/Cha scores and class features, so it's a great way for a frail Wizard to get a big beefy body.
  • Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.
  • Monsters can eat OAs for breakfast, and keeping track of who's engaged with what is hard without a grid.
  • A bunch of spell-specific stuff; Forcecage and Reverse Gravity neutering melee opponents with no save, Levitate allowing low level casters to cheese encounters with melee opponents by floating out of reach, Misty Step allowing Wizards to escape grapples, Animate Objects being the best thing ever for moving heavy stuff. Also Alter Self Flight from level 3, which I was glad to see was nerfed at release.
  • Counterspell is absolutely crazy, and although it burns through spell slots it allows PC Wizards to shut down enemy spellcasters entirely. We had one very anticlimatic boss fight because of this. I'm amazed it wasn't changed for release.
  • Blaster-wizards veer between oneshotting a group of enemies and feeling like the biggest badass ever and chipping away at a big enemy and feeling pitiful.
  • Flame spells are surprisingly hard to use in built up areas unless you have no sense of right or wrong.

Our group has been using the alpha rules for a while now and this matches our experiences.
 

mcintma

First Post
I've played a bunch of PF and a little 3.5, and 5e is definitely a big improvement from both in terms of limiting Wizards - particularly the Concentration mechanic, though that mostly for the hard limit on spells-at-a-time rather than breaking spells with damage (at least at higher levels).

But from what I've seen casters are definitely, absolutely still the class(es) to beat.

What's making you say this? What spells have the casters in your game been picking?

Massive experience playing wizards across all eds (I only play wizards and rogues) mostly. Thanks for reminding me about Concentration - built-in switch to shut down any caster who is proving annoying*. DMs I play for will use it, plus ensure you never get many 5MWD ;)

I've seen DMs who don't apply proper controls to casters in 3.x, espec. CODzilla, so I know where the LFQW anger comes from. I just don't see the ingredients in 5e (e.g. ... Druid doesn't have a companion, summoning is nerfed, I could go on and on).

I haven't playtested high level in final 5e (not many have, I'd think, PHB just came out), so this is my strong opinion, based on experience, after carefully reading the spells etc.

*(less effective vs. ones who spend 2 feats, which is alot in 5e, as you mentioned)
 
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Morty

First Post
  • Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.

This here is a big thing, really. Any balance they may have struck, and it certainly is better than it was in 3e, is quite fragile, since the options for non-magicians to do more than just deal damage to single targets is so limited.
 

Capricia

Banned
Banned
[*]Resilient (Con) + War Caster allows casters to essentially never fail Concentration checks because of damage (99% odds of passing DC10).
--It's dc 10 or half damage taken. You need to go back and read the rules.

The thing is, damage rarely goes over 20. The adult blue dragon deals 66 damage, sure, but once you get to that point, it's more a matter of dying than losing concentration. Further, monsters rely more on multiple attacks. That same Blue Dragon's most powerful non-breath attack deals only 18 damage...4 points less than it'd need to raise the DC to 11.

[*]Necromancers can summon ridiculous numbers of skeletons, which are perfect dungeon-clearing tools and do surprisingly large amounts of damage.
--At high levels? Seems like the high level monsters could take out swaths of skeletons pretty easily.

Not really. Monsters don't seem to be specialized very heavily in AoE damage. Again, blue dragon has lightning breath...that it sprays out in a line. Which means that most of the time it could hit only two or three skeletons. With the necromancer class feature, the dragon would actually need multiple bites and whatnot just to defeat a single skeleton. Meanwhile, the skeletons ability to focus fire off a single bonus action of the wizard's means that a relatively small number of them can defeat a blue dragon reliably in one round. Jack has actually brought this issue up in the necromancer thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?358145-5-0-necromancer/page3&p=6359150#post6359150

[*]5e's flexible spell prep and rituals system means casters sacrifice less than ever before to have their plot-breakingly versatile utility toolkit on tap.
--Most high level spells can only be cast once per days, and require an extremely cost amount of materials. I don't see this a broken at all. We have no idea how much gold you should have at high levels/

Rituals can be cast at-will and don't consume a spell slot, only that you spend 10 minutes casting them. There are plenty of powerful spells with no expensive material components, like Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Fire Storm, Flesh to Stone, Fly, Foresight, and more.

[*]Bards can poach Ranger/Paladin capstone (level 5) spells starting at level 10, when Rangers/Paladins only gain access to them at level 17. By poaching smites the Bard can easily outdamage a Fighter.
--I have no earthly idea why you think smite is a spell you can steal? It's a class feature. This point is completely and utterly incorrect usage of rules.

You're mistaken here. In addition to being able to burn spell slots of damage, the paladin also has several smite spells on its list. Searing, Banishing, Blinding, Destruction...all of these can be poached by the bard and have powerful, crippling effects.


[*]Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster casting is pretty pitiful (level 4+ spells are where it's at, and they only get 1).
--They aren't casters primarily, you seem to conveniently ignore all the other stuff they get. Strawman argument yes?

I think that it's an issue of how little synergy or theme there is with the classes, which is unlike the case with the pathfinder Magus or 4e Swordmage.

[*]Even though the Sorceror is worse overall than the Wizard, Heighten Spell is utterly broken.
--I don't see the problem, you spend resources to give a creature disadvantage on saving throws of a spell? Okay.... ?

When you have spells that can immediately end a fight, making them extremely reliable is a problem. Sure, Legendary Resistance mitigates this problem a bit, but not every challenge is going to have that. To see what I mean, check out Jack's chart on how the Sorcerer's mechanic disrupts the saves:

9030934a03.png

[*]Magic Jar allows you to permanently (until dispelled) take over another creature's body while simultaneously trapping their soul in a jar, able to perceive its surroundings but not to move or act in any way. Nightmarish. And overpowered - you retain your Int/Wis/Cha scores and class features, so it's a great way for a frail Wizard to get a big beefy body.
--Until the container is destroyed of course. You don't seem to be taking creatures into account with any of these points. Probably because we don't have the monster manual and you are looking at everything within a vacuum and not within the context of the game world.

Wizard has several spells that can take care of this. Secret Chest and Demiplane spring to mind, which makes it rather impossible to break the container.

[*]Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.
--I don't understand why this is a problem? Seems like you are grasping at this point. Perhaps you think everyone needs the same complexity? In which case 5e simply isn't for you and thats OK. You can find another game you enjoy.

I think the issue is that at level 7 or so, a wizard has completely different capabilities and approaches than they had at 1st level. The fighter doesn't, and the problem only gets worse the further the game goes.

All in all, I think you need to calm down. Jack has a lot of criticisms, but you can't be too quick to dismiss them just because you haven't taken such a close look at the game yet. It's okay for the game to have issues. Being aware of them means that players and GMs can work around them. Trying to ignore them doesn't do anyone much good, and can lead to bad experiences in actual play.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Nothing's forcing you to start at level 1! We've hopped around at several levels, (up to 20) and found a whole bunch of interesting/broken things so far:

  • Resilient (Con) + War Caster allows casters to essentially never fail Concentration checks because of damage (up to 99.8% odds of passing DC10).
  • Necromancers can summon ridiculous numbers of skeletons, which are perfect dungeon-clearing tools and do surprisingly large amounts of damage.
  • 5e's flexible spell prep and rituals system means casters sacrifice less than ever before to have their plot-breakingly versatile utility toolkit on tap.
  • Bards can poach Ranger/Paladin capstone (level 5) spells starting at level 10, when Rangers/Paladins only gain access to them at level 17. By poaching smites the Bard can easily outdamage a Fighter.
  • Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster casting is pretty pitiful (level 4+ spells are where it's at, and they only get 1).
  • Even though the Sorceror is worse overall than the Wizard, Heighten Spell is utterly broken.
  • Magic Jar allows you to permanently (until dispelled) take over another creature's body while simultaneously trapping their soul in a jar, able to perceive its surroundings but not to move or act in any way. Nightmarish. And overpowered - you retain your Int/Wis/Cha scores and class features, so it's a great way for a frail Wizard to get a big beefy body.
  • Fighters 'going nova' with 6 or 8 attacks look exciting, especially if you're able to give them Advantage or if they can use a maneuver to get it, but after doing so they're stuck playing the same way they did at level 1.
  • Monsters can eat OAs for breakfast, and keeping track of who's engaged with what is hard without a grid.
  • A bunch of spell-specific stuff; Forcecage and Reverse Gravity neutering melee opponents with no save, Levitate allowing low level casters to cheese encounters with melee opponents by floating out of reach, Misty Step allowing Wizards to escape grapples, Animate Objects being the best thing ever for moving heavy stuff. Also Alter Self Flight from level 3, which I was glad to see was nerfed at release.
  • Counterspell is absolutely crazy, and although it burns through spell slots it allows PC Wizards to shut down enemy spellcasters entirely. We had one very anticlimatic boss fight because of this. I'm amazed it wasn't changed for release.
  • Blaster-wizards veer between oneshotting a group of enemies and feeling like the biggest badass ever and chipping away at a big enemy and feeling pitiful.
  • Flame spells are surprisingly hard to use in built up areas unless you have no sense of right or wrong.
Thanks, this is very helpful. Definitely some things to keep an eye on as I prepare to run my next big campaign. I have to admit that I was shocked to see the return of 2E-style magic jar without so much as a CR limit. I used to refer to animate dead and magic jar as create undead horde and become immortal, respectively. (Though it's worth noting that they also brought back 2E magic jar's Achilles heel: It can be dispelled, and if your original body is more than 100 feet away at the moment that happens, you're dead. This isn't a good balancing tool in my book.)

I am not yet convinced that we have returned to the era of caster dominance, but you've made a cogent and extensive list of arguments here. At the very least, magic jar ought to be fixed.
 

mcintma

First Post
I think the issue is that at level 7 or so, a wizard has completely different capabilities and approaches than they had at 1st level. The fighter doesn't, and the problem only gets worse the further the game goes.

I see 2 ways to make fighter options = caster options so everything is fair:
1) reduce the PHB spell section to 16 different spells total, so it roughly = # fighter maneuvers.
2) give fighters a list 100 maneuvers that can do all the stuff spells can.

And that's cool ... that game would not be my personal cup of tea, though ;)
 

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